Procrastination

This table works as evidence that Islamic terrorism is more a function of loose oil money than of Islam. Of these nations, only Iran has oil and only Iran is accused of terrorism.

It also works against the idea that Islamic terrorism is an expression of the desperation of the poor, because Bangla Desh, Ethiopia and Indonesia are also not important sources of terrorism.

Friedman’s assertion is indeed incorrect. But the number of Indian muslims is a little higher than what you suggest. It’s closer to 135 million rather than 125 million as you suggest. The “religious tables” of the 2001 census are likely to be out in 2005, which will settle the issue for good.

Friedman’s assertion is indeed incorrect. But the number of Indian muslims is a little higher than what you suggest. It’s closer to 135 million rather than 125 million as you suggest. The “religious tables” of the 2001 census are likely to be out in 2005, which will settle the issue for good.

muslims in india account for 14 to 15 percent of the total population …
right-wing hindus place the muslim population between 120 and 130 million,

muslims themselves claim to number 220 and 250 million,

but the most respected and accurate estimations come form india’s english language newspapers which put the muslim population between 150 and 200 million.

most likely it is 150 million — anyways, the muslims of india do not refer to themselves as “indian muslims” they despise india as a hindu nation and identify themselves simply as “muslims” or belonging to the Islamic Nation, or Ummah.

The true figure of Muslim population in India is still a state secret. The Indian census reports it to be around 12% while the Indian media puts it between 15-17% of the total population. While the Indian Muslims claim to be around 20% of the total Indian population.

So the official figures gives Pakistan with 150 million people and over 98% Muslim population the second position in the Muslim world after Indonesia.

As Islam is 27% of the world population, and the fastest growing religion in the world…. The muslims in India will be 30%-40% of the Indian population in a few years.
And Muslims in India can be proud to call them self proud Indians. Of course , it’s their homeland. But when you say that you are Indian
people catch this up..
Indian>>Hindian>>>Hindi>>>Hind>>>Hindu????
That’s not what they are
they are Indian>>>Muslim!!!!

I’ve carried out a few survey myself for the population statistics of India over the recent years. I do totally disagree that the Muslim population is around 12% in India, as China’s Muslim Population is estmiated well over 150 million. During the time of partition of India & Pakistan, more Muslims had stayed within India. Yet Muslim population has increased in 3 to 4 folds yet Indian Muslims cannot have been increased by .10 fold. I do estimate Indian Muslims to be well over 250 million just over 25%, which brings the Hindu population down between 65% - 68% and not as claimed to be 80% - 82%.

I think the muslim population of india is 15% and it should be around 150 million, regarding that most muslims in india stayed in india after partition is wrong because pakistan had two wings at the time of patition, east pakistan and west pakistan whose combined populatin was almost 60% of the total muslim population of the subcontinent,today east pakistan is banladesh with a muslim population of 125 million west pakistan is pakistan with a muslim population of 145 million and india with a muslim population of around 150 million

The Indian census puts Muslim population at around 12% Indian Media claims Muslims are betweem 14-17%. The Indian Muslims claims to be around 20% of the total Indian population. Why are census being manipulated ? Indian and Hindu parties then justify in giving lower percentage of jobs in government and admission to elite universities to Muslims. The lower percentage also gives less sleepless nights to the Hindu fascist parties and government of India.

In the growth of Muslim population in India or the world over, it is not their quantity that is a cause for concern, but their quality. The literacy rate among Muslims is the lowest. Most of them limit themselves to learning Urdu and Arabic. They are rarely to be seen in areas like industry, technology, science. In India, the number of Muslim criminals is far greater than proportion of Muslims in the general population. But in fields such as science and technology or in the creative arts, a Muslim is an exception to the rule. This is not specific to India, but is the case with the entire Muslim world. The advances made by Muslim states are generally in the fields of global terrorism and in the manufacture of chemical weapons of mass destruction. Advances in these fields, fuel their warlike aggressive mentality. Most Islamic nations are military-theocratic dictatorships. Democracy is an irrelevant concept for them as Iraq is proving today. Most Muslims generally do not go in for secular education and prefer madrassahs. This is so as Muslims look upon
anything non-Islamic is “haram” i.e. illegitimate.

According to Islam, Muslim women have to wear the ‘Hijab’ (known as ‘Burqua’ in India and ‘Chador’ in Iran). This is the traditional black coloured tent-like gown of Muslim women when they move outdoors. The Burqua covers the entire body of a lady including the face. Similarly Muslim men have to grow their beard. Going about without a Burqua for women and without a beard for men is considered “haram” i.e. illegitimate.

More at: http://www.hindutva.com

Hindutva,

You said that “According to Islam, Muslim women have to wear the ‘Hijab’.” This is not true, Muslim woman aren’t required to wear the Hijab. This is an Arab invention, women are just required to be modest.

I agree with Shey and this is true for most religions as every one has to cover their heads specially women(I don’t know why) when they pray.

In my view religion is just a way to control Illiterate powerless population.

I think all this is a bunch of crap. The muslim nations do not cherish the seperation of the state and church. We don’t care about what religion you follow,just keep it out of the country’s developmental effort.

I just wanted 2 say that im pakistani and that ive been 2 india only once in my life but i know the estimate in 2002 when i last went; The estimate by the indian govt is 153,998,870

Zack, I can’t believe that you get comments on a year-old post. Wow. If others can do it, why can’t I.

Anyway, in the last Indian census a few years ago, the Muslim pop was estimated at about 14% overall (the CIA numbers are out of date). The highest proportion was in Kerala, where about 25% of the pop is Muslim. Next is UP where about 17% is Muslim.

All of this can be found at the Indian Census site. The site is good, but the tag-line is absurd – “we also count people in India”. Is their primary mandate to count people in Myanmar? Or perhaps they mean that their primary mandate is to count cows.

http://www.censusindia.net/

Im reading your all your comments on the population of Islam and im thinking about a few things.

India has a Islamic population of around 120-150 million (disputed, whatever)

This is around the same number of muslims living in the country of Pakistan

Yet, i can say with some confidence that being a Muslim in India is FAR less dangerous than a hindu in Pakistan. Why is that? Why is it that a good chunk of the hindu population in India can live peacefully among the muslims in their country when hindus are being killed and persecuted all the time in Pakistan?

Think about it.

Im not trying to cut on Islam or Pakistan but it makes no sense at all that they claim to want to liberate the oppressed muslims of india when most of the muslims really arent oppressed.

It’s was only a matter of time, & w/ the introduction of WMD’s , well, your time is up.

So how much more complicated of an issue is it Zack?

this is all totally irrelevent to populational statistics

I agree with Sindhi student, the Muslim population in India is probably around 120-150 million, but it is indeed growing year by year. So that would make India the third largest Muslim country in the world behind Indonesia and Pakistan. And Bangladesh is right behind India with the fourth largest Muslim population.

Ok ive read most of those articles and the impression that i have received is that whereever there is a muslim majority….no other religious minority, particularly hinduism can live there in safety. This was my point earlier…

I was trying to see otherwise…but you sent me the links to prove me wrong.

im really sad to hear a pakistani hindu saying that he is not being treated well in pakistan,please dont forget you are still safe in pakistan whereas across the border indian muslims are being butchered in the state of gujarat and are often termed as traitors,whereas in pakistan there has never been such an incident.

I am also not confident of Pakistani religious census figures. The Muslim population has stood at 97% from 1951 to 2002 census. Muslims usually have higher fertility rate so their percentage should be increasing but is stuck at the same point.

The Hindus in Pakistan are mostly concentrated in Sindh province in rural areas. There are few anti-Hindu cases but no persecution or riots as in India. The only cases of Temple destruction occurred only after Hindu lunatics detroyed Babari Masjid in Ayodhya.

What I’m going to say next is purely just out of curiousity and imagination but I’d like to hear much feedback….

I’m sure anyone who has followed India Pakistan news in the past couple months knows that relations between that 2 nations have improved eons more in recent times than it has been since partition. In my opinion, this is some of the best news I have heard, which brings me to my point….

What if.. Pakistan and India were to ever reunite? With India’s economy growing at almost 8 percent and their rise as the worlds largest I.T. power, I honestly think that if it was possible for both nations to overlook their differences there it would be a HUGE gain for both economies in the long run. There has been talk (again this is probably unlikely) of making a united Rupee amongst all south asian nations (Nepal Bangladesh Sri Lanka India Pakistan). This I believe will be an enormous asset to a reunited Pakistan-India. The US sends almost 1 billion dollars to Pakistan in foreign aid, and i think with uniting this money along with indian aid a powerful military can be built along the n-w frontier province to fight any kind of terrorism occuring in the area. This would in turn be of huge benefit to the US which is failing miserably in their hunt for Bin Laden.

Anyways, this is really just a dream world. But its always thought provoking to think ‘what if?’

I read in an article that 95% of people in both nations want a lasting peace between each other. I think the fact that they are looking forward to ending bitterness and hatred is a very good thing, and although i am fairly young, I can’t really remember a time in the past where Pakistan and India were actually looking forward to meeting with each other to make truce. My only fear is that Hindu or Muslim terrorist groups make an attack on either side to ruin any achievements made.

—— India will beat Pakistan in cricket March 13. Haha.

as salam ‘alaikum

A serious game is being played in India at the moment. Muslims are being shifted out of Gujarat. Dalits from Orissas (Udiya) are being settled in every district of the state in thousands of families. Muslims are being shifted out of UP and Bihar and being shifted to Punjab, Udaipur, Malegaon, Jalgaon. Please beware, as it is not possible to assume an figure for the Muslims of India as being right today. Nor do the Muslims of India know their true real number and nor does the Indian government (though it has the best idea) and nor does the media. I willl give an example

The Indian government says muslims are 25% in the Border District of Nagaur in Rajasthan State.

Having known this area very well, I found 3/4 of the villages there completely Muslim. And the villages were relatively larger than the Hindu ones, while the Hindus were the majority in the the eastern towns and in Nagaur city, though the rural population of the state is 70%

and Allah knows best

as salam ‘alaikum

I would caution my Muslims from believing strongly into any figure being given by the Indian government or the Muslims in India

and Allah knows Best

as salam ‘alaikum

The reason is in my first post in this thread.

Please do not exaggerate. I only mentioned one institution (The Indian Government) and the common Muslim in India.

and Allah knows Best

information

Well, being an Indian Muslim, and having lived in India, for most of my life, I would like to contribute with my own experience. Just as someone gave an example of Nagaur, Rajasthan up there, I can speak for Ahmedabad in Gujarat and Bombay.
I have been going to Ahmedabad a few times a year since childhood, and frankly, until a few years back, I would not believe anyone who said that there were more Hindus than Muslims there. Ofcourse, I did not visit all areas in Ahmedabad, but still you must realise that there was a preponderance of Muslims and they are definitely more than the 18% claimed by the census.

In Bombay, Muslims are claimed to be abt 16% by the census, and I can say it is definitely not more than 20% based on my experience of living there all my life. While Muslims are fairly widespread in South Bombay, as you go up to the suburbs, there are very few Muslim suburbs. Ofcourse, Bombay is the most cosmopolitan city of India, and there are a lot of cosmopolitan societies, with all people living together, but still when you visit professional institutions, the number of Muslims is definitely low. I wouldn’t say it is because of discrimination, but because of Muslims not working hard enough. However of the many places in India I have seen, Muslims in Bombay are the most progressive and richest Muslims from India. A lot of the high-end businesses are held by Muslims as are many famous doctors, lawyers, architects etc and ofcourse Muslims are widely present in the film industry. In fact, for the past few years, the toppers in SSC and HSC have quite often been Muslims. I see changes taking place in Muslim society in Bombay, with many youngsters now aspiring to become professionals and businessmen, even among the poorer classes unlike in Ahmedabad(which is really backward). The future is bright for them.

I don’t know how minorities are treated in Pakistan but,minorities especially Muslims in some parts of India are being mentally assaulted and physically aswell sometimes.Surely,Godhra carnage is a blot on the face of Secularism and Tolerance.People arrested in Godhra carnage are all charged with POTA.While people arrested in post-Godhra carnage are all roaming free in the Society.If the people involved in Godhra carnage are terrorists then,the people involved in post-Godhra carnage are also terrorists for sure. I would not rule out that, there is no discrimination against minorities in India.Christians are also often ill-treated by Hindu lunatics and fanatics.Before pointing out other nations for their ill-treatment of minorities it is time for our own extremists to set an example.

India got independence on 15th Aug 1947.It is a combined effort of all the people of the country. It is not just by people of one race or one religion. It is a joint effort of Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and everybody in the country. Finally we got freedom. Each and everybody of the country has right to enjoy freedom. According to our constitution every Indian is equal and enjoys equal rights. It was the situation until congress was ruling India.But situations changed after 1992 when Babri Masjid was demolished for attaining power in the centre by BJP.Everybody in the country know that it is a communal party playing with the communal feelings of scape goat like poor Indians. It has been the communal face of India since 12 years after demolition of the Masjid.
BJP has put an end to secularism. What for Dr.BabaSaheb Ambedkar and all othe intellectuals of the country has sought secularism in this country. They who are the true patriots (Mahatma Gandhi, Chandrasekhar Azad , SubhashChandra Bose,Bhagat Singh) of the country,sacrified their lives for this country , would have never imagined the present communal India. They know the values of democracy, freedom secularism, and integrity of this country. They actually felt that all Indians are like their brothers and sisters.
But , now the situation is changed. People like Thackeray and Togadia who kill Indians in the name of religion are calling themselves patriots of this country.Togadia publicly makes a statement in news papers that they(VHP,RSS) were the cause for post Godhra carnage. News papers publish the news on the front page. All the people of this country go thru these things. Those people include President, Prime Minister, Defence Minister Justices of various Courts in India. Everybody who believe in our constitution criticize the act. But till now the (Best Bakery) case is unsolved.
I would like to ask Togadia whether he has ever pledged in his school days. If so has he just taken oath for the sake of formality in schools. Please remember Mr that it contains “All Indians are my brothers and sisters”. I guess he is a PhD. He speaks about killing of Muslims. Does a PhD degree teaches you to kill your own brothers and sisters?

If education is to teach u behave in barbaric manner then there is no use of having a PhD degree.
Several people were killed in post Godhra carnage .Togadia claimed that it was like a revenge on Muslims. It means he is definitely involved in the killings. When he goes home, start eating food doesn’t he find flesh of innocent people in his plate and their blood in his drinking water? How can he live peacefully by killing so many people? Shouldn’t he answer to the suppressed voices of the people whose beloved were killed. If all this is to attain power, then shame on you and your politics.

Now I ask u people of India a person who kills our own Indians in the name of race and religion and plays worst political games with their innocence …is he a patriot or terrorist? Certainly a licensed terrorist of the present Indian government.

i think ther eis more muslims in india than in pak

as said earlier 60% of muslims from british india went to the muslim state, which again separated into two almost equal parts , pakistan and bangladesh

that will make it 30% pak 30% bangla 40% india

now if pak got almost 145 million and bangla follow right after with 140 million , then india shut have more than 150 million…

the growth rate is higher in india… couse of the muslims population is more poorer… and that results in mass baby booms… i would rather say extra babyboom, it is enough babyes there from before…

well thats my point of view…and i would say it is more than 12% muslims there

and in indian registers…ismailis , khojas and qadiyanis also regarding as muslims…so if we cut em it wont reach the 12% it will still be higher than that…

The assasination of Abdel Azeez Rantissi is abhorable.

Regarding the post, I had only a few comments to make. India does have a good share of muslim population. But majority of states from Maharashtra/Madhya Pradesh/Tamil Nadu/Rajasthan/Orissa/Chattisgarh/Himachal/Punjab/Haryana/Gujarat/Uttaranchal/NorthEast excluding Assam/ Andhra Pradesh/Goa have a population of muslims less than 10%. These states contribute about 600-700 million of India. So that would mean that there are roughly 60 Million in these states. From UP/Karnatak/Kerala/Assam/West bengal, they would contribute atleast 80 million people. So in all that would be about 140 Million muslims which is more than 12% of the population. But that hardly counts for anything in a country that has 81% Hindus. But still inspite of the few riots/ and Congress counting muslims as votebanks. Muslims haven’t had it too bad. Unfortunate that many muslims are poor. But who is to blame for that ? Muslims themselves who have lost an identity to hindus. They sometimes don’t live in unison with the rest of the country. That makes it very difficult to really make them progress. Luckily because of Irfan Pathan, Zaheer Khan, Mohammed Kaif, Indians have let go of the fact that indian muslims support the pakistan team during india-pakistan match. These trio of cricketers have done more to mobilise and make proud the indian muslims than anything before. They have brought an identity of Indian Muslims into the centrestage and it was very heartening to see all Indians rejoice and hindus be proud of these cricketers and make no difference between them . I think this will change the indian mindsets, and get off the congress party who only treats muslims as votebanks, and forget abt them after elections. Atleast the NDA government has ensured better recognition for them on the national stage, and made a staunch Hindu like me know more about the religion and bring about respect for the community.

India has never been so truly secular. This is India Shining.

Again, I like to comment about the Muslim Population statistics in India. I recently met a few dozen Indians (Hindus, Sikhs) would also state the the India Census is normally incorrect, as my Muslim villages are counted as Hindu, where some areas are projected and not counted by the vote census. Above the rest, I found evidence carried out by a few Doctors in India the Muslims do number over 25% of the total population, with well over the region of 25 million. It is also important to note that once CIA confirm population statistics of any nation, apart from USA census, every is correct according to CIA. Yet USA census where ethnic population is concerned is always wrong, I wonder why >>>!

Population Statistics for China were criticised by alot of Muslims both from China and around the world to CIA census. Yet no comments were made by the CIA reporting on the census statistics, and where again a few of us have written to CIA branch for the census information for India no reply to date. Yet it is confirmed by CIA now that Muslims number over 2 billion from 2002 yet Muslims sources have claim being over 2 billion in 1995. India alone has over 250 million and not 25 million, and China over 154 million and not 34 million.

Muslims are not terrorists. DOT. FULLSTOP

Low percentage of muslim population shown as per the cencus is to create a feeling that the mulims are still and always a very tiny population in India, but the truth is different. Allah knows the best..

Seek refuge in Allah and pray to Allah that what happend with Spanish muslims may not happen with Indian muslims.

Atleast now we must have faith in us and create a political background for the muslims without holding the tails of so called secular forces….

And Muslims in India can be proud to call them self proud Indians. Of course , it’s their homeland. But when you say that you are Indian
people catch this up..
Indian>>Hindian>>>Hindi>>>Hind>>>Hindu????
That’s not what they are
they are Indian>>>Muslim!!

Before mentioning this you must think that the word Hindu derives from the word Sindu (river).

As the Aryans invaded India on BC 2nd century through Sindu River they are called as sindu when india called as only HIND. later they called there religion as Hindu.

So a muslim also can proud himslef as indian as the name india was derived from the word HIND.

pls send me the exact muslim population in india

hi to all muslims around the world, i hope the growth increase and if we help each others ,the muslim world population will increase and it will help us reunite together………….may alah bless each and everyone specially (afghanistan)…witch suffered alot.

Can anybody give some information about incidence of bigamy among Muslims vis a vis among other communities?

inshaallah one day india would become a muslim country.those who are non muslim should study islam in detail,and they would find it what is a true religion

hey arsalan, how u doin 2day buddy? hope all’s well…. [Edited by Siteowner]

One more question for u zack! how come a motrifying remark made by the so called big hole in the arse “i mean arsalan” about Hindu’s has not been deleted and the commenter banned?

I have one more thing to say to all u anti Indian ppl….. when u talk about muslims being oppressed in india an blah blah bull shit….y dont u compare the Indian situation with that of pakistan’s…..coz we in india have a democracy and not a military regime…..we have muslim leaders who are politically active in India…..where as in pakistan being hindu is a sin coz u have a military regime and minorities such as hindus are oppressed all the time and forced to follow islamic laws……that is so friggin ridiculous. Muslims in India are not illtreated in those respects,they have their rights, where as in pakistan the rights of the hindus have been snatched away from them…!

First of all I am sorry for digressing from the main topic of Muslim population.
I think that people of any state or religion or other factors would always love to live in peace (barring the psychos). We humans take to the ‘other’ routes only when it poses a question to our existence.
What I am trying to say here is that religious fanaticism or the ensuing riots are not a fiction of a common man, who is more busy with his daily life. It is rather perpetrated by those who make the fanaticism the ‘route’ to their very existence and in there they find their success. I am referring to the Politicians. I believe that no one would ever endanger someone else’s peace - but these politicians have a direct interest in doing so. These are the people who incenerate the fires of riots. Rather than discussing Hindu-Muslim we should really move to eliminate this desease of humanity and more importantly as a means we should educate people (the poor masses) so that they can decide on their own.
Irony is that we all know this but do not understand.

I was a proud Indian Muslim but now as I am an American Citizen I call myself an American Muslim.
But I still love India as any other Indian American irrespective of Religon.
As many people say that Indian Muslim population is about 150 million.
All Muslims are as loyal to their country as the Hindus. The only thing these FANATIC HINDUS like that guy Hindutwa think only those Muslims are loyal who represent India in national sports an play good againg Pakistan or those who design nuclear missiles for India like our Muslim President.

As that Sindhi guy is saying about Pakistan can he compare how many Hindus are killed in Pakistan because they are Hindus and how many Muslims are killed in India because they are Muslims. I am not a fan of Pakistan or have anything to do with it but one thing is there are lot more Muslims killed In India than the Hindus in Pakistan

There is very less descrimination of Muslims in India as far as education is concerned. They are lacking behind because they don’t work hard in School.
But there is descrimination in jobs and that is because if you get 100 aplicants of very similar calibe you will tend to hire the one who has your beliefs. This is mainly because of such a high unemployment.

Zack — BTW, what religion r u from? bcoz that will certainly explain everything.

i want to just say that non muslim should understand islam and learn what is in it.the arab who were the idol worshipper become good muslim when they learned what it is really about.I hope that you should understand islam and choice better one from it.site owner i am perfectly fine.inshaallah one day whole india would become a muslim country

i believe that the area of india is becoming muslim really fast.converging of hindus is fast because people are finding as a peacefull and a real religion.you will think that islam is a religion of terrorist,but that not the case, it has been misunderstood.those people who are fighting is because muslim are being attack by those people.so muslim are not going to sit and get their ass kick, they would fight.same discrimination is happening in india,and it would not be long that muslim will rise in india and would take an action against them.when this happen every non muslim realize that islam is true religion.

how can you hindus believe in a thing that you have created yourself?humans are no god.there is one God and that is allah because if there was lots of god than there would not be anything stable and no creature would be surviving.everybody would be figthing for power and destroying each other creation

I just want make a comment about what this “Sindhi” guy said. He claims that things would be alot better if somehow India and Pakistan got back together again. Man, what kind of freaky dreamworld do you live in. Yo, you need to go get educated or read some history kid. The reason why Pakistan was created in the first place was because of that fact that Muslims and Hindus couldnt get along with each other. Muslim and Hindus are so different in their religious beliefs and culture that it is impossible for them to live peacefully without any incident. Muslims believe in one God, while hindus worship idols. Hindus consider some animals to be sacred, for example a cow, while Muslims and people of other religious believes consider it a viable part of their food chain.

The argument that muslims and hindus have lived together for so many years is true considering the fact that it was under muslim kings. Infact India in its entirety(starting from pakistan upto bangladesh) was never ruled by hindus. Different hindu Rajas have controlled a vast part of it, but never has a single hindu ruler ever controlled the whole of India.

Anyways I dont want to sound like a guy who is a complete bigot and doesnt believe in complete harmony with people of other religons, but the fact of the matter is, an india with a hindu majority and a sizeable muslim population is impracticle. Besides the hindus already think of the rising population of india as a threat, you think they would have sat well with a muslim population close to 450 million. It would have been an invitation to chaos.

Omar, the comments made by me obviously were just to provoke thought and comment. I’m not a fool. It’s virtually impossible to reunite India-Pakistan. I should have rephrased my comments. I meant it to be that India-Pakistan could develop a relationship like U.S-Canada.

BTW, England aided in developing Pakistan for their own political interests by driving the differences farther between Hindus and Muslims. Despite the religious differences, it’s not like the Hindus and Muslims NEVER got along. You seem to have a wrong impression of the relationships Hindus-Muslims have had throughout history.

Zack,

You can’t assume that the percentage of Islam has remained at exactly 13.4% since 2001, when India’s population was at 1.03 billion. At around 1.07 billion people now, I’d guess that the Islamic Indian population would be around 14%.

The data shows that over the past 43 years, only Islam has shown consistent growth in India, at a gain of 2.7% from 1961. Every other religion has remained stagnant or decreased as a of the total population. With Islam having a stated population of around 138,000,000 in 2001 at 13.4 of the population, the number is different now. Since the percentage of Islam in India has increased more from 1991-2001 than previous years, I would apply that growth from 2001 to 2004 as well. I assume that about Islam has increased at about .5% gain from 2001. Therefore, Islam, at 14% of of the 1.07 billion Indian population, is almost 150 million.

“Compare that to Pakistan’s population of 154 million.”

Could you send me the link where you received the data for Pakistan’s religious populations?

Soo many negative posts, anyway dose anyone know where i can find a reliable source for south asian muslim populations and growth trends for the coming years? I aggree that some of the figures presented at the CIA Factbook are quite out of date, even in regards to China… Shame! :(

And info will help, i need it for some research essays! Thankyou.

Zack,

I believe you may want to check this website if you haven’t already done so.

http://www.islamicpopulation.com/asia_islam.html

They claim that India has the highest number of muslims living in the country than anywhere else in the world, with a stated population of 213 million. Is this an accurate site?

One thing is for certain there is no muslim oppression in India as it is always tried to be shown… I am a Hindu and at times i feel the laws made r only for us and not the muslims..there is a law in india that after 10p.m. the sound decimals have to be bare min. I stay in a Muslim locality and at the time of any of their festivals they blare their loudspeakers upto 3 or 4 a.m. causing severe inconvience to everybody. The police when informed do not take any action against these people fearing their never ending tales of minority harresment.Even during Friday prayers they start praying on the roads thereby stopping traffic…These r just a few instances… Sometimes one feels whether this is really our HINDUSTAN… They r Pampered beyond limits and when i read ur articles and someone suggests the Indian muslims are troubled it really leaves me AMUSED…..

Sorry for deviating from the main topic, but Hinduism is a far more complicated religion than most people would be able to understand (Hindus included) Idol worship is only symbolic, Hinduism really believes in one formless and limitless omnipresent omni etc etc all powerful genderless GOD. The multitudes of Gods and Godesses and stories about them that have given shape to hinduism of today are really just stories (Puranas), part of Hindu mythology and were meant to be treated as such. Although we see reconversions today, Hinduism also does not believe in converting people - as long as you are a good person, consider yourself a good Hindu, no matter how big a meat eater you are or how ignorant you ar about Hindus living in India. A young Pakistani American Muslim woman recently wrote a book called why I am a Muslim. A very good and well written book. She describes how certain cultural aspects that were never part of actual Islam are considered Muslim traditions. Hinduism is much much older than Islam. So traditions have been imbibed into Hinduism to a far greater extent than in any other religion. Most people, Hindus included, think that those traditions are integral part of their religion.
I am particularly proud of the fact that we do not try to convert other people into our religion. In any other religion, religious tolerance is an oxymoron. Whether we do it by persuation or by force if we are trying to convert people to our faith, we are making a loud statement that we do not tolerate other religions (other peoples views) and would like the entire world to think just the way we do. Reminds me of some sci fi Hollywood movies where an alien power tries to take over the world and rule it by making everyone think just the way it thinks. To me such a thought is scary. I hope better sense prevails on all those so keen on converting others.
Now Zack, the cenus by Govt of India is not reliable. A true estimate would make the right wing Hindu Nationalists angry. As we are all aware, there are right wing Hindu Nationalists who are already claiming that the muslim population is higher than 25%. Most muslims in India actually believe that number to be true, and like some of the people here in the group, they hope that the entire India would someday become Muslim. Although it seems far fetched at present, it may become a reality. The true percentage of Muslims in India is like someone quoted “Allah knows best”.
There are more atrocities against Muslims in India than against Hindus in Pakistan because there are hardly any Hindus left in Pakistan. If we really need an honest account, we should consider all the Hindus and Sikhs that were killed during partition. In comparison, riots in India were better controlled by police. When Babri masjid was demolished, most politicians associated with it dissociated themselves calling it henious and shameful. Mulayam Singh Yadav, the then chief minister of UP brought in the PAC, a mostly Muslim police force and killed a large number of Hindus who were still rioting. The Govt and all media deplored the demolition act. In Pakistan however, MPs lead the masses into rampage bringing down all Hindu temples they could lay their hands on. People cheered and the general opinion was a very happy one. Hindus do not have overground temples in Pakistan (generally) The are no politicians in Pakistan that are analogous to Laloo Yadav, Mulayam Singh Yadav, Arjun Singh (Muslim butt lickers or pseudo secularists whatever one may call them) and the likes. Comparing India and Pakistan is like comparing the moon with the horse’s butt (Bengali translation).
What irritates me most is when journalists write that after partition India was divided into a Muslim Pakistan and a Hindu majority India. A naive reader will think that partition created two theocratic nations, India being a Hindu nation. Zack, you too gave your religious bias away when you wrote that it is not proper to discuss which nation (India or Pakistan) is ‘marginally’ better in treating minorities. Inspite of Gujrat violence and Babari Masjid demolition, India is way better in its treatment of religious minorities than ANY theocratic Muslim nation, and Zack, admit it or not, you know it too.
Hope peace prevails.
Ajay.

To all my Indian Friends ( irrespective of religion, caste, creed etc.),

Though the topic discussed here is about percentage of Muslim population in India, I would like to
take the liberty of drawing your attention to other realities faced by majority of Indians now and those which they may face in future :

1) Even after 57 years of independence, we are still debating on the population demography in India. Instead we are forgetting the following facts:
(i) More than 30 of our population lives below poverty line. This figure has remained

unchanged for 5 decades. The rest ( barring rich and upper middle class) are struggling

daily to meet both ends.

(ii) Lack of proper Medical facilities and very few Hospitals.

(iii) Rising cost of basic amenities, medicines and education.

(iv) Unemployment problem due to large population.

(v) A very small portion of rich people (whether Hindus or Muslims) maintain autonomy

over everything and keep on multiplying money, it is middle class & poor who suffers

because of their manipulative practices.

(v) Lack of water and power supply.

(vi) Add to this, we have a growing population of AIDs victims. As per govt. figures, in many

pockets, it has scaled to more than 2 of the region’s population. Hence, actual figures
could be higher. Every one will agree that it could cause a havoc if this trend continues.

All the above problems are affecting Hindus & Muslims alike. And we are arguing over
trivial issues.

(2) As for India becoming a Muslim country. If it makes India a prosperous, healthy and society
free of violence, then I would be glad to be a Muslim in such an India. But wait! Wasn’t Pakistan
supposed to be a heaven for Muslims? But where it is now. The Bangladeshis willingly separated
due to atrocities from their Muslim brothers. Even with lower population density than India, it
has been a failure even though it was created with great hope from many Muslim leaders.
Frequently we hear of bomb blasts in a …… mosque killing ……, in a purely Muslim state!
Are Indian Muslims really treated as their brothers? or simply regarded as Moha…..( sorry)
I had heard from two Aga Khanis that certain clergymen in Pakistan were demanding to
banish (Aga Khanis, Isamilies ) from Pakistan. Believe me this is what I heard and even I was
surprised.

The truth is that the inherent divisive characteristics of Hindus remained with them even after they
converted to Islam.

Similarly, a so called Hindu rashtra is not going to take India anywhere. The consequences
will be bad. Already, it is infested with caste differences. Hindu society is the only one in the
world which authorises caste distiction. Over and above this, rich Hindus exploit their poor brethrens severely and rob them of their rightful means. ( Baniyas, Builders, Zamindar etc.)
There is no limit of their greediness and rapacity. ( Squeezing the nation thru’ manipulative
practices as if everything belongs to them only).

Truth is that even if India remains as it is, or gets divided once again ,or becomes
a Muslim nation, the inhabitants will not really be benefitted unless they succeed
in achieving what is really to be achieved. It will then be ignored by the world, lagging
behind with problems without solutions.

Hence, imagine such a state alongwith all above ( economic, health etc problems).

Is this what we are wishing for ourselves and our future generation?

Regards

As-salamwalikum
I am an Indian Muslim living in the city of Hyderabad. Regarding the population of muslims in India, I would say a fair estimate would be between 16% - 20%. I say this because i have travelled a lot throughout India and was frankly surprised to find muslims in some places. Evey village and every city has a sizeable population of muslims living within it. Now although hyderbad and its surrounding areas have abt 40% muslim population, the state of Andhra Pradesh has 15% muslim population.
As far as treatment of muslims in India is concered I would say all this talk about persecution is false. Agreed there are biased people here and you can find them but that is only because this is such a vast country with so many different peoples and cultures. I am no fan of India but I would say that we feel pretty safe here. There is a high handed way the police deal with people here but I think it is the same for hindus and muslims (although you can argue that muslims are meted out a little more unfair treatment). But on the whole its a great place to be in (ie hyderabad) and the only reason i can think of why muslims are so backward here is not because of Islam or muslim lack of intellect but more because there is an unwillingness to work hard and achieve something. I can say this because I am in engineering college for muslims and the situation here is absolutely abhorable. All said and done there slowly seems to be a desire to work hard now. That spark which was lacking for such a long time has been ignited and inshallah we will work hard and achieve our goals and be a postive growth for our society. Inshallah and pray for all muslims and humanity.

finally, is it all over?

see we dont say that muslims should not live in india butt u see histry whereever muslim have increased there is terrisom ,religion convertion and distruction of histry.

The Sindhi Hindu Population: Foreign Influences on Their Culture by Aileen Wortley.

[Edited by Site owner to remove text of article]

During 1947 there were 35% hindus in Bangladesh. Now we are 10%. What happent to those 25% hindus? Most of them were killed my muslims. Some of them were migrated to India. Whereas during 1947 the percentage of muslim was less than 13% in India. Now they are increasing. I do not know why donot they killed by hindus or kicked out India to fucking Pakistan. Bastard muslims.Fuck muslim. Fuck Quran. Fuck Arab

I believe this post was originally about census numbers. However, as is almost to be expected in any India-Pakistan debate, this has basically turned into a mud-slinging test match.

For my part, I believe that census data is way too obsolete at best and grossly inaccurate at worst. However I agree with Zack that for the want of a statistically more reliable alternative, the census data certainly is the “lesser evil”.

Although I am currently a resident of US, I have travelled extensively within India and it is my personal opinion (also seems that it is the opinion of a number of people who have posted their views here) that the population of Indian muslims is grossly under-stated in official figures. However in response to some of the comments regarding India becoming a Muslim state - I have to say “happy day dreaming” because if India couldn’t be converted into a Muslim state in the better part of a 1000 years that it has suffered Islamic aggression, it is hard to believe that it will happen any time soon in the future!

Hey people

i would like to say that all people writte that indian muslim papulation is 3rd largest religion in the world and it’s not true they are not 3rd largest indian muslim papulation becuase indian muslim papulation have grow up to 250 million.
They are over 250 million living in india. Muslim papulation is nearly to 300 millon. They have take indonesian muslim papulation. Indian muslim papulation it’s world’s largest.

After perusing the comments, I’d say that it’s probable that the Indian Muslim population stands at about 15% and the not absurd 13% or 25% which are the inputs of biased individuals. As far as Islam becoming the world’s no.1 religion or of India becoming a Muslim majority nation is concerned, it certainly cannot come about as the law governing the cosmos in all its aspects is “Unity Underlying Diversity”.

In fact, as far as the world following a standard faith is concerned, the only idea that comes closest is that of Self-Realisation.

If Self-Realisation becomes the world’s religion, it would unite mankind on subtler planes of Cosmic Consciousness as never before and drive out all those myths of the so-called superiority of any single religion over others.

With Self-Realisation as the world’s highest faith, Truth would be known first hand, as a matter of direct experiences, without the need to rely on some superficial book theories, half of which are false with the rest being shown to be mundane or common sense knowledge.

Then the need to demographically compete would disappear as all would value Truth as a matter of actual realisations without having to merely become slaves of mythical/unprovable book claims.

By the way, Allah is an original Vedic-Sanskrit word which means the Impersonal Cosmic Masculine Consciousness which is a manifestation of the supra cosmic Absolute Consciousness (God).

Besides, Eid, Kaaba, Hajj, Ra, Mam, Mim, Ain,Hajj, circumambulation of a stone pillar during Hajj, Tonsuring the head, clipping the hair, donning seamless garments and so many other key Islamic terms/customs are of Vedic origin.

And, above all, the Vedas are the only holy books to preach Reality in terms of the laws of Cosmic Consciousness and their varied gradations right down to matter. Quantum mechanics is slowly arriving at the same conclusion but the Vedas give out incisive details of Consciousness (as a graded manifested Consciousness-Force) that far surpasses any scientific exposition.

With the Semitic religions, God is extra-cosmic, creation occured out of nothing,heavens are undefinable places in the clouds or out of the universe and so on.

These absurdities are to be found in the Semitic books as they make not a single mention of Consciousness (as the underlying Reality of matter and of everything else). Ok Arsalan,
Javed?

Warm Regards,

Joel P

Considering the naked disdain many Indian Muslim commentators on this site have for other communities,including for their own motherland, which is evident in their wishes that the world becomes Muslim or India gets converted into an Islamic nation, I would like to first of all query their source of beliefs.

How come you guys come to believe every fiction on the basis of uncorroborated book beliefs?

Just because a book blindly preaches something, why do you blindly believe what it says without employing a minimum rationality to at least theoretically verify its claims?

Practically speaking, nothing of the Quranic claims regarding creation out of nothing, creation in 6-8 days, virgin birth, winged horses, rivers of wine/milk/honey in heaven, boiling water in hell, whores in heaven and the rest makes sense (allegorically or otherwise) or can ever be proved.

If you guys can not answer a single query by using a little subtler rationality and if the Quran or any other book can not even define what heaven, hell or soul, etc, is in terms of their repective materio-functional basis and how they connect among themselves and how they link up with matter, then does it make sense to keep repeating all this gibberish?

What are the cosmic materials and forces of your heaven, hell, soul, etc, composed of? How do they connect with each other and with mind, vital, emotions and matter?

Underlying all diversity is Unity, do not forget this. Otherwise nothing could exist.

Do your uncorroborated religious beliefs answer any of these simple but fundamental qustions? Obviously, the answer is NO.

So, how can you claim that what you believe in is superior or even true?

And, do not bring Consciousness into the picture to answer the above queries related to the supra physical and its connections with matter.

Rememeber, not to quote Consciousness/Consciousnes-Force as your answer as none of the Semitic Books even mention Consciousness, nor do these dualistic Semitic Books explain things in a causal manner leading up to a Absolute Untiy as in expositions on monism in which finally it is declared, as science has discovered on the material plane, that unity underlies every phenomenon (physical or supra physical - everything is a graded manifestation of an Absolute Conscient Source).

Islam talks of God as extra-cosmic as if it is ever possible for cause to exist independent of effect. The effect is nothing but the cause in graded manifestation.

So, before rushing off to blindly quote a book, first check whether its teachings make cosmic and causal sense.

Finally, no one can even prove that Adham, Ibrahim, Ilyas, Isa, Musa, Yunus and the rest were historical characters. So, how do you believe in them?

MORAL: Leave demographics and calls to convert ot Islam aside, first focus on verifying whether your religious beliefs are rational and provable or are they purely fictional.

Regards,

Joel

salam to all brothers and sisters,

firstly in reply to joel i would say that Quaran is a perfect Book and many islamic scholars have challenged any one to prove even a single fault in it. for more info on this check out www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50027 . this website will even clarify your own beliefs about hinduism.

Also i have noticed that there are only non-muslim people here who are directly abusing islam and musims. like comments made by joel pastakia, Biswajit and a few others.. only in a forum they cannot accept the muslim views and (incorrect)population statistics…..so imagine these type of people us minorities have to face everyday in India.

Its disgraceful to see people talk like that…

Also in reply to comments made by people who think muslims are ruthless killing machines and terrorists and they kill people and hindus.

can any one explain to me how come there are more hindus in india than muslims even after the mughals and muslims have ruled over india for 100s of year. Mulims have always been tolerant and islam is the most tolerant religion in the world is proved by the huge population of hindus in india even after india beinf ruled by MUGHALS AND MUSLIMS FOR YEAR.

In a message to no muslims i would like to say is that…..SEE WHAT HAPPENNED TO MUSLIMS IN SPAIN WHEN THE CHRISTIANS TOOK OVER..NOW ONLY AROUND 1%MUSLIMs REMIAN THERE….YOU SHOULD BE THANKFUL TO THE PREACHING OF ISLAM THAT YOU ARE STILL IN INDIA EVEN AFTER MUSLIMS RULED OVER INDIA FOR 100’S AND 100’S OF YEAR.

Jasakalla khair.

Danish

In response to Mr Jasakhalla Khair who blindly parrots the claim that the Quran is a perfect book that remains unchallenged in its wisdom, I repeat that what I said in my previous mails more than breaks this blind belief of the so-called infallibility of the Quran.

Firstly, not a single key concept, terminology or ritual is original in the Quran. For instance, Allah, Eid, Kabba, Ra,Mam, Mim, Sim, Rabi, Hajj, sangmay aswad and many others are borrowed Vedic Sanskrit terms; the Hajj customs of tonsuring the head or clipping the hair, signifance attached to water (zam zam), donning of seamless clothes, circumambulation of the black stone, etc, pre-date Isalm and are directly plaigiarised from Vedic ritutals. The paltry Quranic science pertaining to simple geographical or astronomical facts, the elementary biological details, the information on food/diet, etc, are all directly lifted from the far older cultures of India, China, Greece and others.

Even monotheism is a very old Vedic idea that entered Judaism, Zororastrianism, Christianity and much later it was taken up by Islam, but, the Vedic Seers, having discovered the incompleteness and irrationality of monotheism, went beyond in their supra sensory searches and discovered that Monism or Unity underlying diversity to be the Ultimate Reality in which cuase is not divorced from effect with the latter being a graded manifestation of the supreme undelying cause.

Monism or Unity has also been confirmed by science on the physical plane as postulated by Bell’s, the Boots Strap, Holographic and other path-breaking theorems that postulate a single material force (GUF) as constituting the grand unity of all material existence.

Similarly, on a cosmic scale, the Vedas discovered an Ultimate Unity underlying the whole cosmos - A supra cosmic Absolute Consciousness that serves both as the subtle and gross material and efficient Cause of the multi-planar cosmos. The Absolute Consciounsess in manifestation is a Consciousness-Force that projects the graded cosmos right down to matter.

With Islam, puerile ideas of extra-cosmic god has to be introduced to explain the universe but this is untenable as it contradicts the rationale of universal causality which demands that cause and effects are never separate but always linked (as effect is the outcome of a cause).

funnily,an extra cosmic god is totally unconnected with the universe but still “magically” produces the cosmos “out-of -nothing” and manages to manipulate it “some-how or the other”.

Does “creation-out-of-nothing” and “cause-unlinked with effect” make the least rational sense? Not at all.

This is why monotheism/tauheed of the extra-cosmic kind is a falsehood but the spirituo-intellectually inferior ones take it to be the final revealed truth! Not surprising !!

On the other hand, since cause has to be the source of effect, it logically follows that the effect is nothing else but a partial or full manifestation of the underlying cause.

Besides, as the Quran does not make a single mention of Consciosuness,it’s not surprising that it is forced to preach an irrational extra-cosmic philosophy that rates “creation-out-of nothing” and “cause-totally-unconnected-with -effect” as “cardinal truths”, but, still “somehow”, as in fiction movies, both cause and effect manage to exist with cause, though external to effect, yet being capable of producing and governing the effect! This is all nonsense but it forms the staple religious diet of billions of people following the dualistic faiths.

Finally, if Consciousness (a non-computational quantity) is not taken into consideration, then, obviously, heavens, hells, souls, angels, god, devils, etc, become fictional concepts and though these are said to be supra-physical/non-physical entities, yet, paradoxically, they’ll will have to be explained in gross materialistic terms which is a serious contradiction (as hells, heavens, angels, djinns, etc, are clearly supra-physical planes/entities) and hence if Quran, Bible or Zaboor talks about them without introducing the concept of Consciousness, then every becomes a laughing stock, a fairy tale.

In such a situation, we find that, since the Quran, Bible or Zaboor, fail to mention Consciousness, every claim regarding hells, heavens, djins, etc, will consequntly have to be protrayed in gross material terms which does not tally with the non-material or supra-physical nature of these cosmic entities.

As a result, in the Quran or Bible, we discover irrational descriptions of some undefined heaven (in which rivers of alcohol/milk/honey flow), winged horses as in cartoon magazines, whores in heaven, boiling water in hell and so on.

If heaven, for, instance is a supra-physical place, how come there exist purely material things like alcohol/honey/milk there? Can boiling water exist in a non-physical (supra-physical) place like hell?

The impartial observer can easily smash such fictional and baseless allegories to bits by quering what is the material, force compostion of, for instance, heaven and how does it link with mind, vital, emotions and matter?

If heaven is a supra physical place, then how come it is a place of gross materiality (filled with honey, alcohol,milk, boiling water, etc) and further what is its materio-force basis and how does it link with matter?

It is only when Consciousness is considered that the picture becomes clear/logical.

Since Consciousness is the only non-computational quantity in existence in a universe of matter (as even science has discovered), it is thus rational to consider Consciousness as the supra-physical or non-physical basis of the universe and in its subtler states (free from the taint of matter), it is only logical to understand that Consciousness alone can account for the existence of supra-physical/non-physical planes or entities called heavens, hells, angels, etc.

Today, science has understood that Consciousness is the substratum of the Quantum World and through the theorems on parallel universes among others, undogmatic physicists have accepted the existence of the non-physical planes of existence. So many other proofs exist.

Though science has understood all this, yet the true nature of Consciousnes and the manner by which it connects with matter is a dark area for it. But, at least science is heading in the right direction unlike the dualistic faiths like Islam whose books, since they are devoid of this most crucial aspect (Consciousness, have concocted all sorts of irrational beliefs violating the laws of cause-efect and of painting heavens and hells in gross material terms (eg; rivers of milk in heaven) but, then, ironically, still claiming that heavens, hells, etc, are non-physical states.

No wonder pious Muslims keep looking up to the sky in search of the 7-heavens that are supossed to be piled one on top of the other with lamps dangling from the lower heaven! Laughably, “up” and “down” are relative terms as the earth being a near-sphere there is no absolute “Up” or “down”.

Remember, God, Heavens, Hells, etc, are within your own Consciousness and inherent in every atom! This postulation alone can rationally explain the nature and function of God-Nature-Man.

Everything else is fiction, though each one is free to believe in what he/she wants…though rational answers/empirical proofs will be conspicuously missing from such a blind believer’s bank of sterile knowledge with fiction usurping the place of rationality!

Joel P

Wow, Joel.

For the first time in my life I’ve come across some really terrific rational arguments that blast Islamic myths to bits. Neither the Quran nor the Bible has a single rational answer/proof to confront any of your fundamental queries.
With us Muslims everything is based merely on uncorroborated beliefs without us possessing any rational answers or proofs to any cosmic question realting to heavens, hells, etc.

You rightly have also brought to light the lack of historical evidence concerning the old prophets Adham, Ibrahim, Musa, Isa, Yunus, etc.

Truly not an atom of proof exists to prove that these old Semitic prophets ever existed.

The absence of explanations based on Cosmic Consciousness and its varied subtler movements, as Joel has rightly pointed out, converts every Quranic or Biblical reference to heaven, hell, djinns, farishtas, etc, into mere myths/fairy tales.
Obviously, if Muslims believe in non-physical places like heavens,hells,etc, then the skeptic has every right to inquire as to what the nature of these places with respect to their material, force, functional composition are and the manner in which they are linked to our physical universe.
Naturally, only Consciousness (that connects down to matter) in its lower and higher expressions or planes can rationally provide a convincing answer. All else is fiction.

Bravo, Joel. I am impressed.

The poor fictionalists of Islam must be squirming in their seats but are unlikely to concede the poverty of the Quran. They’ll go on arguing till Quyamat. There’s no hope for them.

Has it rightly been said, that Subtle Rationality is the weapon the rabid Muslims and proselytising Christain Fathers fear the most because Rationality can demolish all the myths gathered for the past 1400 or 2000 years.

But come to think of it, how terrible it has been that these very Semitic myths have brought about so much of bloodshed. Frankly, Islamists are fighting over a pack of myths and unsubstantiated nonsensical beliefs.

Regards,

Ahmed Ishaque

I agree that we’ve strayed far from the topic under contention but the lengthy digression was certainly essential as many Muslim commenters have linked up demographics with the so-called religious superiority or Islamisation of the world or of India. This is why I guess, a truly secular braveheart like Joel had to step in and deliver a hard knock on the heads of these bigots by shattering all their fiction. He’s done a marvellous job of demonstrating the hollowness and outright puerility of Muslim beliefs. In fact as Joel has pointed out almost all the key Quranic terms/rituals have been plaigiarised from various ancient cultures - (even, as Joel noted, the word Allah - an original Sanskrit word from the Vedas signifying a minor aspect of the supra cosmic Absolute Consciousness consciousness, has been copied!)

Not one of the Islamist’s religious claims can ever be substantiated,but, on the contrary, their beliefs can be shown false except for juvenile ethical stuff (related to charity, honesty, non-stealing, etc) that has been known since millennia to humankind even before the advent of Islam or any faith for that matter.

Regards,
Ahmed Ishaque

JOEL and AHMED ISHAQUE ARE THE SAME PERSON…100%

Message to both of you.

STOP COPYING STUFFS FROM ANTI ISLAM SITES AND POSTING IT HERE. FOR NONE OF THEM ARE TRUE.

BUT ONE THING THAT IS DEFINITELY TRUE IS THAT ALL YOU NON BELIEVERS WILL GO TO HELL.

Danish

Danish,

Like an ignorant person, all that a fanatic like you can do is to deny the arguments of others without being able to disprove anything.

Can you disprove anything I’ve said by providing sound reasons and proofs? On the other hand, can you provide me with rational answers and proofs to any of your naive claims of the so-called superiority of the Quran and so on?

I am sure you can not answer a single question rationally or provide a single proof to back up any of your silly superstitions of winged horses, creation out of nothing, extra-cosmic god, 6 or 8 day creation, whores in heaven, rivers of milk, honey and alcohol in heaven, boiling water in hell, and so on.

You don’t even know the definition of heaven or hell in terms of its materio-force composition and the manner in which it links with the rest of the cosmos and the way it connects with mind, emotions and matter.

Despite being so ignorant, yet you curse others by saying that they’ll go to hell. I am laughing.

But, hey, wait, Danish, what is the gross/subtle material-force composition of hell? How does it link with the the other planes of the cosmos and with mind, emotions and matter?

Do you have the answer? Does the Quran have the answer or proof even on the ordinary subject of hell? NO.

So, what’s the use of all your false boasts of the superiority of Islam and the juvenile rest.

Regards,

Joel

DANISH,

YOUR IGNORANCE IS SHOWING.

YOU DO NOT HAVE A SINGLE RATIONAL ANSWER OR ANY PROOF TO SUPPORT ANY OF YOUR FAIRY TALES DRAWN FORM THE QURAN, BIBLE, ZABOOR OR WHEREVER.

STOP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF.

SO, WHAT IS THE USE OF CURSING PEOPLE AND WISHING THAT THEY ROAST IN HELL WHEN YOU CAN NOT EVEN DEFINE THE NATURE OF HELL?

NEITHER DOES OUR BELOVED QURAN HAVE ANY ANSWER ABOUT THE NATURE OF HELL APART FROM REPEATEDLY USING THE WORD HELL?

ANY FOOL CAN USE A WORD WITHOUT KNOWING WHETHER THE THING SPOKEN OF ACTUALLY EXISTS OR WHAT IT ACTUALLY IS IN HARD SCIENTIFIC TERMS - MATERIALS AND FORCES AND THE MANNER IN WHICH THEY ALL LINK UP IN A SINGLE CAUSE-EFFECT CHAIN TO FORM A UNITY.

• DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE MATERIAL-FORCE CONDITIONS
  OF HELL ARE AND HOW THEY ARE CONNECTED WITH
  THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE?ANSWER JOEL IN A LOGICAL
  WAY.

• HOW COME THERE EXISTS PHYSICAL STUFF LIKE
  RIVERS OF MILK, HONEY AND ALCOHOL IN YOUR
  HEAVEN? ISN’T HEAVEN SUPPOSED TO BE NON-
  PHYSICAL PLACE? THEN HOW COME YOU FIND THE
  QURAN TALKING TALL ABOUT MILK, HONEY AND
  ALCOHOL IN A NON-PHYSICAL PLACE LIKE HEAVEN?
  AND PHYSICAL STUFF BOILING WATER IN ANOTHER
  NON-PHYSICAL PLACE LIKE HELL? ANSWER THE
  PUZZLE.

• GIVE JOEL THE ANSWER TO THE MATERIALS, FORCES
  COMPOSING HEAVENS, HELLS, ETC.

OF WHAT SUBTLE/GROSS MATERIALS AND FORCES ARE
YOUR QURANIC HEAVENS/HELLS MADE UP OF?

HOW DOES THE SUBTLE CONNECT WITH THE GROSS?

• HOW ARE THE NON-PHYSICAL HEAVENS/HELLS
  CONNECTED TO THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE? IN OTHER
  WORDS, WHAT ARE THE SUBTLE (NON-PHYSICAL
  MATERIALS AND FORCES MAKING UP THE
  HEAVENS/HELLS AND IN WHAT WAY ARE THESE NON-
  PHYSICAL STUFF CONNECTED TO PHYSICAL MATTER OF
  WHICH OUR UNIVERSE IS MADE UP OF?

• IS IT POSOBLE FOR A WINGED HORSE (BURAQ) TO
  HAVE EVER EXISTED?

• IS CREATION OUT OF NOTHING EVER POSSIBLE? HOW?

• IS VIRGIN BIRTH (AS IN THE CASE OF
  JESUS)POSSIBLE? HOW? WHAT ARE THE
  GROSS/SUBTLE MATERIALS, FORCES AND MECHANISMS
  INVOLVED?

• IS THERE ANY ARCHAEOLOGICAL, NUMISMATIC,
  INSCRIPTIONAL OR GENETIC PROOF TO SUPPORT THE
  HISTORICITY OF ADHAM, IBRAHIM, MOOSA, YUNUS,
  ILYAS, ISA AND OTHER SEMITIC PROPHETS? DID
  THEY EXIST? WHAT ARE THE HARD PROOFS TO
  SUPPORT THAT THEY WERE HISTORICAL PERSONS?

• HOW COME THE MAIN QURANIC WORDS AND RITUALS
  LIKE ALLAH, EID, KAABA, HAJJ, MAM, MIM,
  RA, SIM, ETC AND ALL THE HAJJ RITUALS
  (CIRCUMBULATING A STONE PILLAR THAT LOOKS LIKE
  A SHIV LINGA, DONNING OF SEAMLESS CLOTHES,
  TONSURING THE HEAD/CLIPPING THE HAIR, ETC)
  COPIED FROM VEDIC-SANSKRIT SOURCES?

• HOW COME THE ELEMENTARY SCIENCES IN QURAN ARE
  ALL COPIED FROM INDIAN, CHINESE OR GREEK
  SOURCES?

THERE ARE MANY MORE QUESTIONS. BUT THIS BE
ENOUGH FOR NOW.

LISTEN YOU IGNORANT FANATICS, THIS IS YOUR
CHANCE TO PROVE ALL YOUR FAIRY TALES.

SO, GIVE RATIONAL ANSWERS AND PROOFS TO BACK
UP ALL YOUR FICTIONAL STORIES AND SILLY CLAIMS.

BYE,
A ISHAQUE

Dear Uncle RAUF,

You say that Hindu gods are human-made and that Allah is the only god!

Are you aware that the word Allah itself is a pure Sanskrit word that occurs in Vedic literature and refers in Vedic parlance to a minor cosmic aspect of the Absolute Vedic God?

The Absolute consciousness (Akhand Chit) is considered God in Vedic literature and Its impersonal cosmic manifestation is called Allah in Sanskrit but Allah the Cosmic Impersonal Consciousness has many other Sanskrit synonyms as well such as Akshar Brahman, Nirgun Brahman, etc.

The Jews borrowed this Vedic-Sankrit word and used it as El/Eloi alongwith Yahweh for god, then Jesus modified it to Allaha to denote his heavenly father and finally this Vedic-Sanskrit word (Allah) was picked up by the Arabs and used as a word for god!

So, Papa Rauf, who’s god is human-made, copied/stolen?

What a laugh that the Muslims are for the past 1400 years worshipping a Hindu god (Allah) and calling it an original Semitic/Islamic term!

As in Hinduism everything is considered a manifestation of a Cosmic Consciousness-Force, then how can you say that their highly rational and scientific faith is human-made?

Can Cosmic Consciousness, which is a naturally existing fact, be invented by humans when the entire cosmos and we ourselves are pervaded by it and made of it?

In Vedic expositions, the supra cosmic Absolute Consciousness is God and which as a manifested graded Consciousness-Force (Chit Shakti) projects the entire multi-planar cosmos out of its innate essence.Thus heavens, hells, souls, angels, humans, stars, etc, are simply different graded aspects of the manifested Cosmic Consciousness-Force.

In Hinduism, god does not reside amidst fire and thunder on a cloud or somewhere outside the universes but, on the contrary, God, as the Absolute Consciousness, is the only Reality and Who, in partial manifestation, as a graded Cosmic consciousness-Force, manifests the entire cosmos out of Its Self! God serves as both the material and efficient Cause/Source of the cosmos!God is the Absolute Unity underlying every cosmic variety!

Cause and its Effects have to the linked together for anything to make sense, otherwise everything gets reduced to FICTION of the Islamic/Christian kind in which some extra-god suddenly manufactured cosmic materials “out of nothing” and then made the universes and though he is unlinked with the cosmos yet he has the power to govern it, some non-physical heaven is said to be filled with flowing rivers of physical substances like milk/alcohol/honey; whores and fair boys cater to one’s sex needs in some undefined heaven; horses like Buraq have wings to fly to some undefined heavens in the clouds or god-knows where; 7 non-physical heavens (whose material-force compostions are unknown nor is it known how they link with matter) are said to be suspended in layers above the earth for the naive believers to gaze up to, prophets like Adham, Moosa, Ibrahim and others (about whom historical proofs do not exist) are credited with copied/stale but tall achievements.

In short, nothing makes sense.

Not a single Islamic belief can ever have a rational answer or proof to support its veracity.

Can such a faith ever satisfy the higher intellectual sections of humanity? No.

With the Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs and others, every phenomenon is a manifestation of a cosmic Consciousness-Force that itself is a projection of a supra cosmic, self-contained Absolute Consciousness.

So, when a Hindu, Buddhist or Sikh prays, he does not look to the sky or outside of himself, but he prays to the innate Supreme Spirit (Absolute Consciousness) that is within him and from whom he and the whole cosmos has originated.In this way, the laws of Cause-Effect are never violated and heavens/hells/souls/angels are simply modes/states of the manifested Consciousness-Force. How rational!

Compare these sublime Vedic revelations with the crude Semitic ideas that violate the laws of cause-Effect at every step.

No wonder, Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenberg, Neils Bohr, Max Planck, Ernest Schroedinger and other scientific greats were highly impressed by the Vedic expositions and derived much intellectual fodder from it.

Today, Quantum Physics, too, has recognised just 2 aspects of Reality which are Matter-Consciousness.

The riddle thrown up by Consciousness that inheres in every atom has perplexed scientists. Consciousness, being a non-computational and thus a non-physical quantity, has foxed the scienfic community. It remains a great mystery to science. If the material aspect of Consciousness has confounded them, then what can one say of its supra-physical states! The Vedas give out all the crucial hints on this most profound query. The means to attain to the higher supra physical states of Consciousness are also provided in hindu and Buddhist scriptures…

The Nobel laureate Max Planck remarked: “I consider Consciousness as fundamental, matter as secondary. I consider matter to be derivative of Consciousness.”

In comparison, not surprisingly, Consciousness finds not a single mention in juvenile books like the Quran and Bible (though in the Bible there exists a veiled reference to it in the words of Christ when he chided the Jews for searching for God and heavens outside of themselves by gazing into the skies. On seeing the ignorant Jews looking skywards in search of God-heavens, Jesus told them not to look to the sky but to look within themselves: “Behold, the Kingdom of Heaven is within you!).

Otherwise, the Bible, like the Quran, Zaboor, Torah and other Semitic books, is full of childish dualistic teachings that alludes to irrationalities like creation out of nothing, cause unlinked with effect.

Here, in short, is the basic difference between the different faiths.

so, Uncle Rauf, the comparisons are self-evident, or should I spell it out in bold as to what Islamic beliefs are all about?

I guess by now you ought to know the vast diference between FICTION and REALITY? Got it?

Arsalan, Javed, Danish and others, have you all got it, now?

Boys, enjoy your FICTION as long as it lasts because Nature will get rid of it in time to come but do not impose all your FICTION on others as it has been done for the past 1400 years. So, much of bloodshed, cruelty and barbarism has been unleashed by ignorant Muslim and Christian biogts! And for what? To spread FICTION!

PS: Fanatical Muslim boys, here’s something for you to digest:

In Sanskritised-Tamil ( a language of South India that dates back to several millennia), a Shiva temple is called “Kaabalieshwaran” or “Kaaba” and Shiva (the Cosmic Conscient aspect of Cosmic Beneficence-Transcendence-Dissolution) is termed Kaabali!

An aniconic, oblong black (ashwet,aswad = non-white or black) stone is installed in such temples that have a water spring for pilgrims to circumabulate 7 times. Many more details exist.

Got it, boys?

WARM WISHES,

Joel P

hi all guys,
I would like to add a few comments. Hindu religion is the oldest religion of the world. bramha created the srishti. All other religion borned after that. According to “Nostadems” after 2016 hindu religion will be widespreads in the world. All other religions (Major) have ruled the world now its time for hindus. Wherever you find hindus it is peaceful on the other hand wherever you find Muslims riot is their inborn right. Those days are not far away that all muslims will renage to hindus. those who are borned as hindus are really luky.

Dear Sanjay,

Your views are as stupid as those of Javed, Arsalan, Uncle Rauf, Danish and other ignorant Muslim fanatics.

Like them, all you can do is to shout out your pet theories without being able to rationally answer or substantiate any of your hollow claims.

If you equate Hinduism with the Hindus, then you’ve not understood anything, though the Hindus can be in a way considered the rightful heirs of the Vedas.

But, in what sense?

Are the 850 million or more Hindus the rightful heirs of the sublime Vedic wisdom in experiential terms or by virtue of birth? Obviously, the latter.

First, understand that Hinduism (rather Vedism) is not a formal religion as say Judaism, Christianity or Islam as it does not revolve exclusively around the teachings of a Prophet.

On the contrary, though several mighty Prophets (viz., Ram, Krishna, Chaitanya, RamKrishna Paramhans, Sri Sri Anukul Chandra Thakurji) have arisen on the soil of India, yet the Vedas is an independent record of the supersenuous experiences of the Rishis concerning the Laws of Cosmic Consciousness and their manifested effects that both derive from a supra cosmic, self-existent, self-contained Absolute Consciousness that serves as both the material and efficient Source or Cause-Mechanism of the graded cosmos!

Vedism is the Science of Cosmic Consciousness! Nothing less!

The Prophets/Avatars have all expounded or clarified the findings of the Rishis and have at times gone into terrific details to further add to the stupendous Vedic bank of cosmic knowledge and have also revealed newer methods of Self-Realisation.

While with other faiths, God is extra-cosmic and creation occured out of nothing (in open defiance of the laws of Causation, Conservation and Unity underlying Diversity!). With them heavens, hells, angels, souls, etc, are mere words; they have not the least rational definitions/explanations or proofs of what they believe in, yet they think that just because say the Quran claims something, then, without the least proofs or rational answers, it has to be true. There’s no spirit of rationality or inquiry into the aspects of cosmic existence. If you ask one of them (Jew/Christian/Muslim) the meaning of say heavens, he won’t have any definition of heaven in terms of their subtle-gross material/force composition nor the manner in which the varied subtle aspects link together among themselves and later with the gross matter. They know nothing.

Besides,almost all their Prophets remain mere book names; there exists not an atom of proof to corroborate the existence of Adham,Moosa, Ibrahim, Ilyas, Yunus, Isa and so on.

But, perhaps, the Semitic books that are all pale imitations of the Vedas (with, shockingly, even Allah being a pure Vedic-Sanskrit word!) have willfully withheld the higher information as the Prophets/Saints responsible for the Semitic holy books were confronted with inferior followers who lacked the capacity to comprehend and realise the cosmic truths in their own lives!

In comparison, very importantly, with Vedism, the key-note is Self-Realisation: To actually realise the supra-physical cosmic truths by direct experiences in the supersenuous/supra-physical states of Consciousness, nothing less.

Nothing should, say the Vedas, be taken for granted based on mere book expositions.

Direct proofs gained through supersenuous yogic experiences of the varied Cosmic Powers, Light, Knowledge, Peace, Bliss of the supra-physical cosmic planes is the aim, knowing which one knows all - the subtle as well as the gross and the connections of all the aspects leading to the Supreme Unity!

“What is That by knowing which everything else is known is the pronounced basal theme of the Vedanta! To discover, through actual experiences, the Supreme Unity underlying the entire cosmic diversity, is the aim!

Such an exacting aim! Only the extra-ordinary souls can achieve it!

Self-Realisation: This is the supreme goal of the Vedanta.

Compare this to those childish Semitic religious excercises of simple book recitations, fasting, congregational prayers, pilgrimage and the rest.

To be a true Vedantist, one has to be a Yogi/Rishi who has actually come into direct supersenuous contact with the subtle planes of the graded Cosmic Consciousness-Force. There exist so many more details….

On the other hand, everything with the Semitic faiths is based on mere half-baked book knowledge or hearsay! Dogmatism, irrationality,superstitions, to say the least!!!

But, sadly, today very few Hindus can intellectually understand the grand Vedic revelations and as far as the actual yogic prcatice of achieving the Supra Physical Union is concerned, well, not more than a handful are capable in varying degrees in the present.

Most Hindus have badly degenerated in body-vital-mind that they collectively present a deplorable sight and this inner degradation has in turn converted them into a populace with slavish, jealous, selfish and cowardly minds!

Bear this in mind.

Warm regards,

Joel Pastakia

Joel,

You are an intelligent spiritual person with many strong views that have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Why are you still exasperating yourself explaining Vedic supernatural understanding and Self-Conscious to people who really just want to talk about the Islamic population in India? I was waiting for Zack to say something but he must have already given up seeing the amount of rhetoric that comes out of you. Get back to the main topic.

Your Pal.

Hi Sindhi,

Though I heartily agree with you that I’ve digressed far from the original theme (The Muslim population in India), why can’t you understand that the Muslim population is not a mere statistical quantity that can be discussed in a mathematical manner?

Why?

Because with the Muslims at least, a rising population is automatically linked with the victory of Islam and the subsequent Islamisation of India, USA and the world.

The average Muslim - the majority - just cannot seem to delink demographics or for that matter anything else too from their religious dogmas drawn from the corpus of Islam. They gloat at the decimation or subjugation of other religions, cultures and non-Muslim populaces.

But, they in their naked ignorance of the underlying cosmic processes, have failed to understand that the law of nature inheres in Unity Underlying Diversity! Can Nature ever tolerate a total homogenisation of any entity, religion included? No. Variety with an underlying unity is the law of Nature in every aspect at least on the earth plane where the diversity, with underlying connecting trends, in almost everything is amazing. The same holds true for the entire cosmos.

Self-Realisation - when the individual Consciousness fuses with the Cosmic Conscious Self - is above all dogmatised aspects of religion and is the only creed that can be termed universal.

Perhaps, with the manifestation of a subtler aspect of the Cosmic Consciousness-force in physical matter on the earth plane, humanity will, in the future, move collectively towards a a single,new faith - the Cosmic faith of Self-Realisation when the Cosmic truths are directly experienced as expressions of a supra cosmic Unity underlying all diversity!

Coming back to the Muslims, they naively believe that the Quran is the last word of truth of all kinds when obviously, to the unbiased observer, it’s an egregious fallacy.

Why, haven’t you noticed that the heavy undertones of faith (Islam) in many of the previous messages on this forum?

Why, haven’t you yourself on a few occasions painted a grim picture of the pathetic state of the minorities in Pakistan?

You, obviously, from your comments, fear for your life being a Hindu in Pakistan! Right?

And you yourself have said that the Muslims can not co-exist peacefully with other communities. Right?

If India and Pakistan ever unite, in a short time the Hindus will be violently attacked and demographically made into a minority with the Sharia imposed upon them.

So, Mr Sindhi “Intellectual”, when the writing is clear on the wall that the Muslims view their rising population with some so-called religious glory or supremacy and have been openly pouring insults on the non-Muslim beliefs on this site and when you yourself can state that the plight of the minorities in Muslim lands like Pakistan is deplorable, then how come you believe that that demographics is just a simple table of numbers? Are you in your senses?

Are you so blind or pseudo-secular that you insist on discussing the population trends of the various religious communities in India and elsewhere as a mere mathematical excercise when the communal cauldron is about to violently spill over? Let the muslim population in India touch the 25% or 30% mark and then the real trouble will begin. Watch out!!! Unless natural justice intervenes to save India from such a terrible consequence, we can bid goodbye to peace forever!

Can you not plainly see that the tenor and drift of the debate on this site is loaded with the sinister message that India and the world are soon to be Islamised due to the population boom among the Mulims?

And, here you expect me to behave like another spineless Hindu (though I am not a Hindu) in overlooking the seriousness of the issue at hand and keep the discussion confined to merely a game of statistics? I am ashamed at your response.

Though a Hindu, I bet that you won’t know head nor tail of your own Vedas apart from drawing out a gross idolatrous meaning from these grandest of all revelations.

As a Hindu in Pakistan, you won’t dare to protest even if the Muslims there spit on your idols, books, temples or families.

You can’t do a thing either spiritually, intellectually or physically to defend your faith or your person or hit back against the blasphemies of the Muslims there.

Why, even in Hindu dominated India, most of the Hindus are rank cowards, afraid to confront the Muslims in most instances.

The Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and Communists regularly throw insults at Hinduism but where is the manly Hindu response?

The Hindus in India are behaving like a minority community in their own land and are tolerating every shit being dished out to humiliate their religion and culture.

In which nation on earth, will such a shocking thing happen?

In any other country, such a thing would never have been tolerated from the very beginning and if, by chance, such a ghastly scenario would have arisen, there would have been civil war by now.

The Hindus have greatly deteriorated and have lost all their past spiritual, intellectual and martial valour.

Cowardice, sham tolerance and digesting insults of every kind is not what the Vedas, the Ramayana or the Gita teach.

The Vedic faith teaches one to be a man first and then to think of taking up the super-Herculean task of Yogic Union with the supra physical cosmic planes. Got it?

For many centuries now the Hindus having been hiding under the sheath of a so-called tolerance but true tolerance does not lie in being indifferent to every insult or smilingly enduring every injustice and calling that a noble trait.

The present Hindu brand of tolerance is another word for cowardice, selfishness and a non-sacrificial attitude that have all become inborn tendencies - impregnated in their genomes over the past 1,000 years!

Ok, Sindhi “Intellectual”?

On reading the comments on this forum, I decided to first expose the hollowness and downright falsehood of the so-called superior religious claims of the Islamists.

Those ignorant Muslims like Arsalan, Danish, Rauf and others have, apart from simply making tall claims and screaming abuses to their critics, not been able to rationally answer a single query. And, as far as evidences are concerned, their beliefs are a big zero!

These cheap fanatics have been indoctrinated into believing silly book tales!

Warm regards,

Joel Pastakia

Dear Zack,

I appreciate your comments and your patience for enduring the “long essays” that were a necessary part of my build up on the topic of the Muslim Population in India. As said earlier, it was undertaken to deflate the bigotry displayed by certain Muslim members on this forum and to knock off the Islamic propaganda part, irrational to say the least, out of the discourse.

You want me to stop posting “irrelevant” views but I tell you that my purpose has been achieved.

Not a single Muslim bigot, despite using the “wisdom” drawn from the Quran, has been able to answer any fundamental query rationally or on the basis on evidence! Every book claim expressed by them as the “eternal truth” can be shown false, inadequate or plaigiarised.

It has rightly been said that subtle rationality is the weapon the bigoted Islamist fears the most as it demolishes all his book fairy tales and illusory beliefs.

Apart from hollow claims and abuses hurled at critics, what else can the fanatics offer?

You also say that hate comments and bigotry will not be tolerated but there exist several highly “offensive” and “provocative” mesages on this site which have not been deleted or censured!

Lastly, please remember, it makes no sense to keep indulging in a “guessing game” as regards the true figures of the Indian Muslim population without analysing the underlying causes and the concomitant implications and consequences.

Warm regards and good wishes,

Joel Pastakia

Joel,

The basic belief in Hinduism (and probably Islam and almost any other major religion) is that everyone should strive to be the best individual they can be and that everyone is equal in the eyes of God. Therefore, why are you so upset at the Muslim people? Only a very small percentage of Muslims advocate violence against other religions, where as most others just go about their daily routine trying to be the best Muslims they can be. You go against your own Dharmic principles when you ridicule other peoples beliefs to the point of nonsense. Hinduism is a peaceful religion that can coexist with any other religion. Each time you talk against Islam, you berate Hinduism and make other Hindus look like fanatical morons. Throughout your whole self-realization spiel, you forget that in achieving ultimate understanding, judgement should NOT be passed on others. But you just can’t quit judging Islam and how it is so bad.

On another note,

I am a Sindhi Hindu raised in the United States whose relatives were removed from Pakistan after partition. I read information about the current state of Hindus in Pakistan and know it is bad. That is why I brought up the topic in this post, since figuring out the remaining Hindus in Pakistan would go along with trying to figure out the Muslim population in India. However, I also know that there are a number of well respected Hindus in Pakistan too (i.e. Rana Bhagwandas, Deepak Perwani, Danish Kaneria). Knowing this, I know that all Pakistanis aren’t bad people, especially if there can be famous Hindus well known in their country. If I used your logic, I would be ranting on and on about how Pakistanis abhor Hindus.

Please stop with your insults, Joel. If not for the sake of Hindus, but for yourself.

Thanks,

Your Pal.

Dear Sindhi,

You’ve failed to comprehend the essence of my message. It’s directed against all fanatics; haven’t you noticed the manner in which I’ve berated a Hindu fanatic like Sanjay? Another slip on your part is that I am not a Hindu as you’ve implied. I am a Parsi.

What I mean by my posts is that if Muslim bigots like Arsalan, Javed, Rauf and others can brazenly link demographics wih the victory of Islam and pray for the subsequent Islamisation of India and the world, why can’t someone step in and shatter their false religious beliefs? Is it wrong to do so? On the contrary, it clears the foul stench of fanaticism pervading this site.

In order to smash the false superiority of these bigots, all I did was to ask them some fundamental queries on Islamic beliefs pertaining to the substratal nature of heavens, hells, souls, etc, and the manner in which they link with matter. I knew fully well that neither the Quran nor Arsalan, Javed and others could rationally answer any of those queries. All that the Islamic book does is to mention these supra physical entities without explaining the substratal part. Another of those Islamic fancies is Creation out of Nothing and Cause unlinked with Effect! I laugh at all this.

Besides, I simply pointed out that key Quranic terms (viz. Allah, Kabba, Eid, Hajj, Sangmay Aswad, Mam, Mim, Ra, etc) and rituals (circumambulation of a cylindrical Shiva Linga-like stone, donning seamless garments, tonsuring the head/clipping the hair and many others) are plaigiarised from Vedic sources. Further, all the elementary geographic, scientific and hilosophical knowledge contained in the Quran is also copied from Indian, Greek, Judiac, Chinese and other books.

So, what is unique about the Quran? Nothing.

Yet, we find Muslim fanatics killing and persecuting non-Muslims and preaching hatred against other faiths. Arsalan and others are no better.

Interestingly, not an atom of archaeological, numismatic, epigraphic and genetic evidence has been unearthed to corroborate the historicity of their mythical prophets - Adham, Ibrahim, Moosa, Isa, etc.

I do not have a grouse against any religion. All I ask people is to respect all religions, not to promote myths and superstitions of the Quranic or any other kind, not to bully, maim, persecute and kill others due to these myths and not to equate demographics with religious superstitions.

By the way, why couldn’t you bravely face (at least ideologically) the Mullas in Pakistan that you had to flee like a typical Hindu coward to the USA? Idelogically, too, your understanding of your own Hindu Vedas is a big zero. Apart from pleasing all as a cover for your cowardice and spirituo-intellectual deficiencies and falling before you idols, what else can you do?

The Vedas preach manliness before Self-Realisation! Got it?

Here in India a 13% Muslim populaion has put the fear of god into the weak Hindu heart; the Muslims are never afraid to die for their pet beliefs, the Hindu, in most cases, keeps compromising on all issues and is only intent on securing material prosperity for himself and is family.

All your arguments on Hindu-Muslims demographics are mere juvenile “guess-games”, pyrrhic speculations that lead to nothing conclusive.

Neither is there any attempt to analyse the seed causes underlying population trends nor is there any effort to link demographics with socio-economic-religio status/trends/beliefs and their consequences as manifested in world history and particularly in the Indain sub-continent where a mixed population and the concomitant growth/decline of individual castes and religious communities has given rise to some of the most interesting events over the past 1,000 years. India has changed much down the ages and is today in quite a deplorable plight.

Compounding matters is the sinister nexus of our politicians with the underworld (most of whom are puppets of the ISI.

The future population growth (and fast altering communal composition) in India is bound to witness very volatile happenings in the decades to come.

Best Regards,

Joel Pastakia

I wanted to put them in their place.

Back to the topic,

Looking at the latest CIA world factbook figures has made me somewhat skeptical of how the CIA conveys the population information.

First, they show India’s population at 1.08 Billion and Pakistan’s at 162 million. But, when addressing the religious denominations within both countries, neither country’s percentages are updated. It still says Pakistan’s muslim population accounts for around 97% of the total, and India’s accounts for 13.4% of their total. If this is the most accurate source upon which this discussion is based, shouldn’t the religious figures be up to date before we hypothesize? Otherwise, we sit here and guess as to which country has the higher muslim population.

I think that the population estimates may very well be inaccurate, and therefore it is pretty difficult to put a proper number on either country’s muslim population.

Right now, my safe guess is that both countries have around 150,000,000 muslims, give or take 10,000,000.

Since it seems that India’s muslim population is more in question than Pakistan’s, I think calculating the muslim population in each state in India and getting a total would be more accurate than what the CIA fact book is saying.

Another point in question, what role does Kashmir play when figuring out the total Muslim population of both countries? It is quite possible that when Pakistan or India release their statistics, they include the whole population of Kashmir within their respective state. Kashmir isn’t the most heavily populated state, but there are enough Muslims to make a difference for either Pakistan’s or India’s total.

Again, we don’t ACTUALLY know how either country calculates their population, but I’m assuming the CIA divides Kashmir between the 2 countries on the LOC border.

Speaking of which, is it right that population facts may be done with Kashmir divided along the LOC? Would it be wrong if both countries included Kashmir’s population as their own, or just neglected the state’s population completely?

Just thought I’d give my input on the discrepencies of the information we’re dealing with.

Sindhi Student.

sindhi bhai,

namaskar!

i have been thro all the mails and must say that ur entire mission is, as Joel says, to simply keep playing a ‘guessing game’ about numbers of hindus and muslims in india or pakistan. in all your mails and in those of most other peoples on this website, a childish game of tossing back & forth of population numbers is being played.

what will such a silly guessing game achieve? if once and for all u and others can form a rough count of the hindu-muslim populations, then what will come next on your list of guesses?

u keep quoting one figure for hindus and muslims, others deny that, they give their own guesses, then u reply back saying that their guesses don’t make sense. then after some time u insert some stale statement about how minorities are badly treated in pakistan and then u wonder how come muslims can never live in peace with non-muslims, then u say your family got scared and ran away from pakistan to USA, then afterwards you stupidly say that u hope that india and pakistan should unite and when it’s pointed out by someone else that such a unification would result in mass bloodshed, then realising your foolishness u quickly write back that actually u meant to write that trade wise both neighbours should unite. thereafter some muslim mulla like Arsalan jumps in and says that he hopes islam captures india and calls the hindus dirty names (why didn’t u protest?), then our gutsy joel steps in to slam these fanatics and to point out all the stupidities in Islamic beliefs and tells u and Zack not to play a kiddish game of simply guessing population figures without analysing the root causes and consequences, but then u write back saying to joel not to change the topic so that the guessing game can go on and on so that u can can indulge in ur fantasies of only continually guessing the true population of hindus and muslims…….

does all this make even the slightest sense? to keep on guesssing and guessing and guessing till judgement day.

i hope good sense will come upon you so that u and others stop this silly guessing game. it’s a low IQ thing to do. it is just like rumour mongering or like women gossiping about petty or make-belief stuff and trying to imagine they are doing someting very smart when actually by doing so u and others are only showing the level of ur intelligence. so please improve ur self and get a little sensible.
i have loads of information on community statistics from the TISS but those write-ups go deep into logical reasons and outcomes of demographics instead of stupidly indulging in a guessing game of the actual population figures.

i wonder how Zack, who atleast appears to be more sensible, can ever allow people to keep indulging in a never ending game of guess statistics. Sindhi, it’s like the old fool who repeatedly tried imagining and discussing with other ignorant people about how many millions he would discover at the bottom of the river bed game and the way he would spend it without knowing if there was any truth in his wild guesses and hallucinations.

as for me, if the muslims r incressing, then it is mainly due to high birth rate and not due to conversions. india is home to about 150 million muslims. if say a country X becomes mainly muslim over time, it will see lots of violence with other communities.

love: Yash

DEAR ZAck,
i am glad that u have reminded Sindhi that his questions are very old and repititive. he just keeps repeating old questions over and over again without arriving at any intelligent conclusion. for how long will he and others like him keep on guessing and only guessing and like young kids keep changing their guesses over and over again?

please ban this childish, sub-intellectual Sindhi guy and even fanatics like Arsalan, etc from this forum. the new rule should be that only original questions on the topic under discussion and answers that at least attempt to form a conclusion should be entertained. the scope of the debate should also be enlarged to include analysis of the causes and consequences of changing demographic trends in india and the world.

Sindhi boy, stop your childish repititive questions, arsalan stop ur islamic nonsense, joel please do not answer fools like Sindhi who can not go deeper apart from simply playing a stupid guessing game and also do not answer evil individuals like arsalan whose only aim in life is to convert non-muslims to his irrational islamic book beliefs.

love, Yashendra

I did not have patience to read all the comments, but few theories:
1)
Most of us blame the communal BJP for the violence, but has anyone ever thought that it is the so-claimed secular Congress and other parties that’s the real culprit for the existing communal parties and the reglious aminosity in India. If the secular Congress was so concerned about the minorities, why it did not do anything for their upliftment? It was ruling for 50 years! Give a thought to an idea that its the actions of this Congress party that led to the rise in power of communal parties. When in the name of minortism, the majorties were not given the equal attentions, some of the moderates changed to the fundamentalist hindu. I don’t have the specifics, but read an article on rediff.com about how the government acted when the Indians were kidnapped abroad. In case of Muslim (or some other minority) one the government was prompt, while in the case of Hindu one the person was allowed to die. I am not promoting BJP or other secular force, but rather trying to say that Congress is not that secular after all. It just has the hunger for votes.
2)
One reason why the government would like to keep the muslim population undercounted because that would give them the weapon for the votes. They can say that you are not many and need some support against communal segments and we can give that protection. When you think you are alone, you will even fall for the most blatant lie responding to the most basic instinct of survival. Remember so far, its congress/so-called secular that has put out the census.
3)
Reason lot of Hindus in India think that Muslims don’t care about India is, I believe, that all the bomb-attacks have been carried out by Muslims. Organizations like SIMI breeds the anti-India feelings. Some actions like putting religion before nation (I remember Muslims protesting to stand-up to National Anthem claiming its against Koran. Agreed your faith must be respected, but nobody asked to bow, just give respect. When giving respect to your neighbour Hindu is not against Islam, then why to the nation is?) some of these issues are blown-out of proportion by the dirty politicians and then moderates on either sides converts to extermism.

I was trying to speculate why there is no concensus on what’s the Muslim population in India or why no one knows what’s the ‘actual’ Muslim population in India. I guess I did not put it correctly. You are right. Sorry about that!

Jignesh,

Obviously, you dare not speculate about the true population of Muslims in India. Nevertheless, by all accounts, it does stand to reason that the Muslims in India, including those in J&K and the illegal Bangladeshis, is about 15 crores though the official claim is a bit lower.

As far as your diatribe against the unpatriotism of Muslims in India is concerned, the truth is that Muslims are not loyal to any nation even in Islamic lands with most favouring a pan-Islamic state cutting across geo-political boundaries. Even in Pakistan, a huge chunk of Muslims owe greater alligiance to Osama Laden’s idea of the establishment of an Islamic superstate straddling half the world with more nations following under its sway as they get vanquished by jihadi violence. They hardly care for the sovereignty of Pakistan but are more hooked to the notion of a global Islamic state.

Lastly, remember, the patriotism of most Muslims is “conditional” as they view the “unsubstantiated”, “incomplete”, “juvenile” and “plagiarised” knowledge contained in the Quran to be absolute, binding for all times, the last word of truth and true in every aspect, literal or otherwise.

But, before the hard hitting hammer of logic, Muslim bravado, pride, superiority and condescension towards everything non-Muslim or secular gets shattered to bits as the bold fact is this that neither the Quran nor their own perverted reasoning can convincingly and factually account for a single tall claim about soul, heaven, hell or angels. They have no answers or proofs to any fundamental query !!!

Funnily, their extra-cosmic or sky-god Allah is a pure Vedic-Sanskrit word and concept which was lifted from the Vedas. Further, there exists no evidence to even show that Adam, Moosa, Ibrahim, and other Semitic prophets were historical persons!

Joel Pastakia

hey you Muslims answer the questions raised by Joel or else admit the inferiority of the Quran !!!

Yashendra

i m not the earlier sindhi bhai, neither have i read any comments before–its too long –but i would like to say one thing–the hindu concept of nirguna bhagwan or a god with no form and the islamic concept of unformed god is the same. But islam is more violent–i m not influenced by western media though, but i have read the quran and the book isent wrong–it says we must not worship idols, but it never says that we must not worship idols if we think there is just one god. Prophet mohammed intended to make people realize god is one and as they used to divide themselves on basis on diff idol worshippers, thus the concept of one god came. But this concept was there already in vedic scriptures as ádvaita’or non-dual god. Yes we r idol worshippers but we think its onne god. Gosshhh these people are misinterpreting the holy quran We sindhis are mostly sufi in our views, we believe god is one!
lastly i want to mention even one more point–islam is not bad–its the followers–even if today budhism was a religion in arabia today then today people would fear budhism and consider it a bad religion!–its the race of people that follow the religion that make it violent or peacefull. But the fault also lies int eh source. The very muslim quran in sum parts has the attitude of holier then thou! this is wrong and sarva dharma samman is only limited to hinduism so i would not support islam in that case!–otherwise its a wonderful religion –but not as logical and scientifcally correct and adjusting peaceful as hindu faith!

for once Sindhi is quite right but Joel’s profound analysis takes the cake when it comes to commenting on comparitive religions. The quran like bible and purans are altered books for several reasons which can be proved. nevertheless what the Quran says is not new, or comprehensive. Every thing in it is borrowed or copied with its own unique distortions. even Allah is a Sanskrit word. Anyway, Islam is fine as long as it means surrender to One God whether u choose to call it Allah, God, Jehovah or Ishwar. However, monism or advaita is above monotheism. In monism or non-dualism, the ultimate unity of God, Nature and Man is found and is declared to be the Supreme Super-Conscious Absolute Godhead ! This, in manifestation, expresses Itself as the Personal God (Allah, God, Jehovah, Ishwar) and Its further manifestations projects the whole cosmos into being. Unity underlying all diversity is the only truth of existence.

Yashendra

Zack’s wild at the digressive comments posted on his site. Rightly so. But, when you introduce a topic as explosive as the demographics of the Indian Muslims some will turn it into a number-guessing game, others will attempt to analyse the religio-socio-political causes underlying the high birth rate of Muslims and the motives behind it, fanatics will use the forum to air their communal hatred and others will target the fanatics to silence them, show them how puerile their beliefs are and to clear the board so that the discussion can get along on a truly rational and secular platform. But, I hasten to add, where Muslims are concerned they just can’t get rid of their irrational theological trash which they must introduce into every discussion (but it’s so easy, as demonstrated by my earlier mails, to demolish Islamic superstitions). Has it rightly been said that Islam is mere theology? I’ve yet to meet a truly secular Muslim who accepts the validity of all faiths as the varied expressions of the One Truth.

Remember, sheer number of followers does not make a religion great. Its core content that has to be simultaneoulsy rational, intuitional, practical and realizable through direct experiences makes a religion truly great. To simply believe, just because the Quran says, that creation out of nothing is true or that heaven is some undefined place that some-how-or-the-other-exists and which is claimed to be non-physical but that has yet been described in garish physical terms (rivers of alcohol/milk, houris for free sex, etc) does not make the least sense but ranks amongst crass fictional works.

Muslims get your act together and stop making your religious beliefs and yourselves the objects of mockery and laughter.

Joel.

ZACK IS ANGRY. FOR WHAT? IS IT THAT WE GUYS HAVE JUMPED THE MAIN TOPIC AND HAVE BROUGHT IN OTHER POINTS? IS THE SUBJECT INTELLIGENT TO BEGIN WITH? IT JUST INVOLVES A GAME OF LOTTERY THAT KEEPS SPECULATING ABOUT THE TRUE POPULATION OF MUSLIMS WITH ZACK TOO JOINING IN THIS SILLY GAME OF GUESSING NUMBERS.

WHAT HIGH AIM WILL BE ACHIEVED EVEN IF THE TRUE NUMBERS OF INDIAN MUSLIMS IS DECLARED BY THE GOVERNMENT?

IT IS ONLY THOSE WITH LOW IQ WHO WOULD HAVE A SITE DEVOTED TO A GUESSING GAME. THE SENSELESS GUESSING GAME WILL KEEP GOING ON WITHOUT ANY DEFINITE ANSWER.

WHEN THE TOPIC OF POPULATION NUMBERS OF INDIAN MUSLIMS IS SO VAGUE AND WHEN OTHER MUSLIM BLOKES HAVE DRAGGED IN THEIR ISLAMIC COCK AND BULL STORIES THEN WHY DOESN’T ZACK UNDERSTAND THE NEED FOR OTHERS TO HIT BACK?

I THINK ZACK’S TOPIC OF DISCUSSING POPULATION OF INDIA’S MUSLIMS IS TOO CHILDISH, IDIOTIC, UNSCIENTIFIC, NARROW AND HAS AS ITS AIM A SILLY GAME OF GUESSING THE TRUE NUMBERS OF MUSLIMS IN INDIA. GUESSES AND GUESSES AND ONLY GUESSES.

WHAT SENSE DOES IT MAKE TO BEGIN A SITE TO JUST KEEP TOSSING BACK BACK AND FORTH SEVERAL WILD GUESSES AS TO THE TRUE POPULATION OF INDIAN MUSLIMS?

YASHENDRA.

Hello every one,

The population census 2001 conducted by the then BJP government is correct. The muslim population of india is only 12% including kashmir. Also population growth rate is decreasing or equal to that of hindus . Muslim can never overcome hindus in india. muslim can not outnumber hindus ….ok
The population of muslims in hindu majority kerala is only 21% and malapuram district where muslims are 70% has lowest growth rate.

hello friends, u r estimating muslim population only by cities . In case of rural areas it is difficult to find a muslim family in most of the villages….

In tamil nadu, u can hardly see a muslim in villages. Muslim population of tamil nadu is only 4%. see the population census in detail.

why these muslim barbarians are proud of their population. As the population increases, poverty also will increase….understant muslim fools……
Also keep it in your mind, muslim barbarians. As science and technology is growing fastly, Islam will not exist in future. It is a religion of murderers.

Indian muslims….bow your head…you are after all a threatened convert to islam. shame …shame….Urdu speakers……u have born to either arabs or turkist and their raped indian woman…………….

As long as islam is in the world, there will be no peace……civilize all the muslims …that is what USA is doing ya………

oh….bloody converts, dont be proud of your population…..be shame of your people’s illiteracy and poverty ok……….

In tamil nadu most of the prostitutes are muslim women.

Try to civilize your society …..ok

Certainly, all sorts of chaps with opposing views have cropped up on Zack’s forum as the topic is so volatile and based more on conjecture than on actual facts. When stupid fanatics like Arsalan and others have put forward their views on the merits of an increasing Indian Muslim population with all the other crude reasoning taken from Quran to justify their stupidity, then others have a right to respond. Anyway, what silly joy do you get in just guessing at demographic figures without commenting on their implications - social, economic, religious, political, etc?

Yashendra.

Zack’s worried at being criticized for beginning a forum devoted to guessing the exact numbers of Indian Muslims. He denies he’s a part of the silly bandwagon who senselesly keep tossing forth demographic figures and keep on arguing about the authencity of the census. Then again Zack and others bring back the same quote on population numbers of Muslims in India, then Sindhi or some other chap butts in with his own suspicions and game goes on endlessly.

Listen Zack, if you feel that the census figures are accurate, then what’s the need to seek other people’s opinions on the stale subject? If you are convinced that the census count is correct why keep up a continuous debate on this trivial issue?

If you are not guessing, then what are doing by always butting in with your estimates, corrections and wild conjectures?

If you were convinced about the accuracy of the demographic count, you’d open up a more intelligent avenue related to the underlying causes, consequences and motives of the growing demographic imbalance (religious or otherwise) in India.

Why do you have to keep reminding people about your faith in the census and then open up a huge guessing game on the subject? Does it make sense, boy? Grow up.

Anyway, how do you know that the census figures are accurate? On what evidential basis do you base your belief?

What is your motive in beginning a discussion on such a limited but communally explosive issue?

Yashendra

Dear Zack,

You must learn to accept the roses with the thorns and that too when you want to debate a hyper sensitive subject like the population figure of Indian Muslims. Or, did you expect me to join you in this juvenile guessing game and to sing your praises and complement you for initiating such a subject that has as its beginning and end an endless guessing dialogue on the true numbers of India’s Muslims? Don’t take offence.

My questions are: 1)What would have been the population of Muslims had India not split into three parts (India, Pakistan and Bangladesh)?

2)How would such a huge Muslim population dealt with the Hindus, Christians, Sikhs and other non-Muslims?

3) Would Islamic Jihadi terrorism have turned Unidivided India into one big battle field?

4) What would have been the orientation of the Constitution? Theocracy, dictatorship or democratic, secular republic?

5)Would the Muslims have out-bred the Hindus and imposed Islamic law?

6)How would the Hindus have reacted?

7)What would have Undivided India’s foreign policy tilt been?

8)Would Undivided India (with a 30% or 40% Muslim population) have made huge advances in frontier sciences (as Bharat has made today)?

9) Would Undivided India been able to set up world class research insitutions like the IISc (Bangalore), ISRO, BARC, TIFR, IITs, ISIs, etc?

10) In Undivided India would peace have prevailed to permit the advance of scientific and economic progress, or would the perpetual communal wars have dragged it into the morass of degradation?

11) Would the spirit of free inquiry been safeguarded and encouraged in Undivided India in view of the fact that not a single Muslim nation encourages free thinking and questioning of its silly religious dogmas?

12) Would Undivided India been capable of producing world beaters in every field or would it have fallen into the gutters of fanaticism of sky-gazing and blindly believing, as the “wonderful” Quran preaches, that the extra-cosmic god, creation out of nothing, heaven in the clouds and other such idiotic fables are possible?

13) What would have been the position of the varied languages, festivals, cultural forms and the plight of the dalits in Undivided India been?

WAHE GURU KI FATEH (VICTORY TO THE GURU)!!! SATYAMEV JAYATE (MAY TRUTH PREVAIL)!!!!

Yashendra

Great Going Yashendra.

Your intelligent queries, reasonings and apt sermonising have put the Zacks, Sindhis and Raufs on this forum to shame.

You’ve at least shown far superior intellectual traits going by your incisive queries.

What would be the consequences on India’s political, social, communal, religious, cultural, knowledge-based,linguistic and constitutional institutions with a growing Muslim population?

How would things stand 4-5 decades from now in all the abovenamed spheres?

Will the Hindus regress further in face of a strong Muslim response?

Will India, Pakistan and Bangladesh unite into a single unit over the decades or centuries as the sub-continent’s demographic balance, as indicated by several scholarly studies, tilts in favour of the Muslims with Hindus becoming a minority?

Zack, learn from Yashendra. Guys, try answering these posers and the queries posted by Yashendra.

Love,

Joel Pastakia

JOEL HAS PROVEN HIS SEXUAL ORIENTATION TOWARDS YASHENDRA! THIS WHOLE THREAD HAS TURNED INTO AN INTIMATE CONNECTION BETWEEN YASHENDRA AND JOEL. AND I COULDNT BE HAPPIER. A MATCH MADE IN HEAVEN FELLAS……..CONGRATULATIONS.

ON A MORE SERIOUS NOTE,
LET US ALL PRAY FOR THOSE WHO PASSED AWAY IN THE EXPLOSIONS IN BOMBAY ON 7/11.

Sindhi,

FROM WHERE DID YOU GET THE IDEA OF HOMOSEXUALITY? FROM YOUR PARENTS OR TRICKY SINDHI COMMUNITY? I AM SHOCKED U CAN MAKE SUCH WILD ALLEGATIONS JUST COZ YOU HAVE BEEN TICKED OFF BY JOEL FOR BEING SO SUB-INTELLECTUAL AS SEEN BY ALL YOUR PREVIOUS MAILS IN WHICH YOU CHILDISHLY JUST KEEP GUESSING AND GUESSSING AND GUESSING. GROW UP.

DON’T SHOW YOUR PERVERSIONS ON THE FORUM AND DON’T GET PORNOGRAPHIC AS THEN IT’LL BE PROVED THAT ALONGWITH POSSESSING A LOW IQ YOU HAVE A PERVERTED MIND AND A JEALOUS MIND TOO.

LET’S DISCUSS THE CAUSES, MOTIVES AND CONSEQUENCES OF A GROWING MUSLIM POPULATION IN PRESENT DAY INDIA AND THE POSSIBILITY OF INDIA, PAKISTAN AND BANGLADESH COMING TOGETHER AS ONE NATION IN THE FUTURE AS, OVER THE DECADES, THE HINDUS MAY WELL BE REDUCED TO A MINORITY IN THE SUB-CONTINENT, AS JOEL REMARKED.
THIS IS CERTAINLY MORE MEANINGFUL TOPIC FOR DEBATE THAN ZACK’S AND SINDHI’S DUMB AND CHILDISH GUESSING GAME OF POPULATION FIGURES.

YASHENDRA

I think Yashendra is having a bad day. Are you all right? Your entire life must be spent posting comments on this site that no one cares about. Except Joel, who I believe is your soul-mate. Listen guys, you both have so much in common; just exchange numbers and meet up sometime. It’s seriously all right. People have grown tired of your tirades. But you two have grown so much closer because of it; give it a chance! I’m not insulting you guys, but it just sounds like you both have a lot of similar feelings that can be shared together; no one on this site cares about what you guys think. Have fun Yash!

HEY SINDHI BOY,

YOU ARE ONCE AGAIN SHOWING UR JEALOUSY. WE ALL KNOW THAT YOU ARE NOT INTELLIGENT AND HAVE A LOW IQ DUE TO WHICH U KEEP INDULGING IN A CONTINUOUS, SILLY, CHILDISH GAME OF GUESSING THE MUSLIM POPULATION IN INDIA.

NOW, THAT SINDHI’S JEALOUSY IS ALSO SHOWING, ME THINKS HE’LL NEXT START ABUSING MY MOTHER, WIFE, DAUGHTER AND MOTHER. I KNOW SINDHI COMMUNITY CAN STOOP TO ANY LOW LEVEL TO GET EVEN WHEN THEY ARE OUTWITTED.

BEHAVE IN AN INTELLIGENT, CULTURED AND SENSITIVE WAY, SINDHI BOY. BUT, HONESTLY YOU DON’T SEEM TO HAVE MUCH INTELLIGENCE AND U ARE SOOOOOOO JEALOUS OF THOSE WHO DISPLAY SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE AND WHO TRY TO BE DIFFERENT FROM THE ORDINARY SHEEP MENTALITY THAT U POSSESS.

LET NOBLE THOUGHTS COME TO US FROM EVERY SIDE, SAYS THE RIG VEDA.

LOVE, YASHENDRA.

I have read the amusing exchange between all of you.

Can someone give information about the birth of Islam and the connection it has to the Sanatan Dharma (popularly known as Hinduism)?

Premajit

Dear Premajit,

It’s amazing that you want information on the birth of Islam and its connections with Hinduism. Haven’t you read Joel’s lengthy expositions on the similarities between the two faiths? He clearly brought out the differences and correspondences between them and shown how the key concepts, rituals and terminologies of Islam have been plagiarised from the Vedas and other old books.

Even the word Allah is Vedic-Sanskrit.

In short, despite the plagiarisations, Islam stops short at the Monotheistic concept of the extra-cosmic God who’s unlinked with the cosmos in an un-causal relationship (as if cause can ever be divorced from its effects !), while the Vedanta ends on a Monistic note and boldly and rationally declares that God, Nature and Man are One in the Essence as they are the varied manifestations of the One Self-Existent, Self-Contained, Supra-Cosmic Source (The Absolute Consciousness) that serves as both the material and efficient Cause-Mechanism of the universes. In the Vedic view, even the Personal God (Ishwar, Allah, Jehovah, etc)is a manifestation of THAT - The Absolute Consciousness.

Yashendra.

Premajit’s amused as he’s in the dark about the more philosophical and subtler aspects of existence. Perhaps, he’s a mere mathematician or a chemist who knows about the superficial or surface laws of Nature in an inferential manner but is ignorant about their subtler, supra physical or underlying causes.

Listen, Premajit, to be sarcastically amused by the discussions of others, you must know more than those whom you find inferior. But, here, without comprehending an iota of the depth, drift and tenor of the exchanges, Premajit’s amused. I thought, being such a superior critic, he’d at least be aware of the origin of a world religion like Islam and the fundamental differences between Sanatan Dharma/Hinduism and Islam. It brings to mind an apt quote: fools enter where angels fear to tread. Or, Premajit, should it be, a little knowledge (Maths? Chemistry?) is a dangerous thing?

Regards,

Joel Pastakia

My comments and questions were in no way sarcastic or out of a superiority complex. I was amused that the tone of the discussion was so personal and at times insulting to each other that someone even went to the extent that people were gay on this forum. That was amusing.
An intelligent discussion entails a clear cut discussion on the issues and not on personality.
What does ALLAH mean in vedic- sanscrit?
And if its so obvious, why do none of the HINDU saints/ organisations make a big deal about the common heritage and background of the HINDU and MUSLIM faith?

Prem,

Thanks for clarifying your stand. But, if I am not mistaken, I think I’d given the meaning of the Vedic-Sanskrit term Allah in a previous message. Anyway,in Vedic-Sanskrit, Allah means the Impersonal Cosmic Consciousness that’s a manifestation of the Supra Cosmic Absolute Consciousness (Akhand Chit). The word Allah is just one of the synonyms of the Impersonal Cosmic Consciousness that’s also styled more popularly as Ishwar, Akshar Brahman, Bhagwan, God, Jehovah, etc. But, the Absolute Consciousness exceeds the Impersonal Cosmic Consciousness. This is the Vedic stand, even the sufis consider Allah as the Personal God and Al Haque as the Supreme Godhead that exceeds Allah.

Most people are unaware of these terms as they are more caught up with the external, ritualistic or superstitious sides of faith. For instance, how many Hindus use the word Brahman for the Absolute? How many Hindu, you included, know the difference between Brahman and Brahma? While the former is the Absolute Godhead, the latter is a cosmic aspect of the former and is a Cosmic Consciousness-Force that deals with the projection and functionalities of the name and form aspects of the Cosmos. The Absolute is the Supra Cosmic Source of all.

By the way, there are scholarly articles on the past Vedic heritage of Arabia. Incidentally, even the words Kaaba, Makka, Ibrahim Muhammad, Madina, Eid, Hajj, Rooh, Sangmay Aswad, Mam, Mim, Ra, all the Hajj rituals, etc, found in the Quran are lift offs from Vedic sources. All this has been proved by scholars and all the proofs exist. Open your eyes and discover the truth.

Regards,

Joel.

Thanks for the reply. You obviously are very well read and articulate………(this I am saying at the cost of some people calling me names tooo)-:)
Lets hope that the people of peace will prevail and that they will understand that all human beings are manifestation of the same energy of the supreme conciousness.
Organised religion is the biggest terrorist organization in the world………What we need is religiousness and the understanding of universal brotherhood in this world.
With best wishes,
Premajit

Check this out

http://www.hinduism.co.za/kaabaa.htm

http://www.hinduism.co.za/islam.htm

Premajit

Hello everyone…I have read almost all the coments by the respected users over here..including those of Joel and Yashendra…where the latter challenges the muslims to come up with answers.
I m afraid my comment would be long too..
I want to dispose of with some of the myths that these guys have sucessfully created..since my post will be an answer to all the misconceptions about Islam spread above..it will be divided into several parts each part answering a certain myth.

MYTH #1)ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF TERROR AND IT WAS SPREAD BY SWORD: Well…Islam started with Prophet Muhammad(saws)-a single person who preached love,equality,peace and submission to the One Allah.His message was received more in Yathrib(modern medina)than in his native Makkah.When finally the Islamic armies of Medina captured Mecca…the residents there who had actively contrived against the Prophet(saws)forcing him to leave the city were spared and only a few known criminals were punished.Now my friends if Islam and its Prophet were indeed blood hungry of the innocent then how come did they leave their one time sworn enemies alive when they had completely vanquished them?Answer me if you can….

When Islamic armies captured Jerusalem in 685 AD,the Jews and the Christians there were placed under state protection whereas centuries later when the crusaders captured the same Jerusalem,entire muslim and jewish populations were anhiliated.If muslims were that blood hungry would they have spared the jews and christians then?

Coming back to India,in its 700 years of Muslim rule,can anyone find any remote gross state led economic subjugation and oppresion as in the British rule of 200 years?Yet it is the Muslim who stands as the villain and destroyer of Hindus.

As for the speading with the sword-Well please answer my simple question:Suppose I convert you to Islam by force,can I force you to convert others to Islam in a similar manner,spirit and enthusiasm?An obvious “No” if you are from the world of reason.So I suppose when the small state of Medina invited its neighbouring populations to ISLAM it wasnt by force that Islam spread since these populations in turn and within a span of 50 years had converted the entire middle east to Islam…and there after their continuing generations had Persia,central Asia,southern and eastern Europe, Afghanistan.Western Indian subcontinent and the far east converted to Islam.of course in the process wars ensued.you would call them wars to spread Islam.I would call them wars to liberate entire populations from their dead religious views and expose them to the light of Islam,and which happened in reality.Today important Islamic countries were once the main enemies of Islam…the persians,the Turks,the mongols…so just question the simple fact-why did Islam spread among conquered people who should have had an extreme hate for Islam who conqured them.?
And you would perhaps also like to question yourself as to why is Islam the fastest growing religion in USA whose citizens face terror wraths from Muslims worldwide?

It just goes on to show that Islam is and will always be the religion of peace and truth which will be aceptable even to its sworn enemies once they understand the true message of Islam-Submission to the will of Allah…Do good and invite others towards good works…Shun bad deeds and prevent others from commiting bad deeds.

Hello friends…continuing from my first post…my comments are( I accept with a regret to Zack ) off the intended topic but again it is rather a response to the critical and biased views about Islam that requires some explanation

MYTH#2:MANY WORDS IN ISLAMIC THEOLOGY ARE DIRECT OFFLIFTS FROM VEDIC SOURCES SO ITS A COPY RELIGION OF HINDUISM:

Well…I can agree with you my friends that many words in Islamic thelogy may be there in the Vedas.You may also be informed that the word Allah(Al-Lah meaning the Divinity) have been found engraved in caved dating back to about 3000 years.Supposedly Islam did not exist that long ago..isnt it?
But wait..lets see what Islam has to say about itself.Islam says that its not invented in the 7th century AD.It claims that it starts with the first man Adam and the first woman Eve.
Hadiths(sayings of the Prophet saws) say that Allah had sent about 1,24,000 prophets into the world(figures are approximate without any clear consensus on the actual number but they are certainly large is what is in concensus)before prophet Muhammad(saws).Jesus,Moses,Abraham,Noah are a few of the famous prophets about whom all of us know.Then is it not possible that Allah had sent prophets to India too?
The ancient saints of Hindus may have been actually prophets of Islam.Islam also holds that it has evolved alongwith the evolution of humanity.You cant expect Islam in 8th century BC to ask its women to wear the veil when there has been no proper clothing material invented.So Islam for Moses’s age was the 10 commandments..for Jesus’s period was a set of laws which were incorporated in the Bible for Muhammad(saws) period it was a complete law laid down in the Shariat and Quran and hadith.And Islam concludes when Allah says that this day religion has been perfected for you.
Now I come back….why dont we believe in Moses 10 commandments or the Bible when they are actually Islam.We do believ!.Islam has incorporated all the 10 commandments ,all that is in the bible and added extra thing too.So now the old religions are irrelevant in the face of Islam.Its just as using an upgraded versiuon of a computer programme.if you continue to use your old version you are likely to run into errors.
The Bible was written 200 years after the disappearance of Jesus(contrary to what most Christians believe that it had been written during Jesus’s time) and its corruption is evident from its countering views on science(which is the reason why most western scientists are sceptical of religion and are taken to atheism)
Now the Vedas have been written and compiled over a very long period of time.Ofcourse they do contain many things which Islam reinforces,however they also suffer from scientific inaccuracies which even the most ardent Hindu cant deny.However such an allegation cannot be proved against the Quran.So my friends why not use the “upgraded version”? The Quran is not the first book of revelation ..however it is ofcourse the only Book of revelation to stay in its true form(if anyone has any doubt about my statement I will explain in a separate post).

You speak of just a few words from the Vedas…entire concepts of the Quran are similar to the Bible..the formation of the earth,the first man and woman,heaven and hell,the judgement day…does that mean that Quran is a copy of the Bible?
Those who criticize the Quran I would advise them to atleast read its content.Even with a biased mindset you would be compelled to accept its uniqueness vis a vis the Vedas,Bible or other religious books.Its a counter challange to the critics of Islam from me.

MYTH#3-ISLAM BREEDS INTOLERANCE:

Yes!That is extremely true.Islam has a zero tolerance towards oppresion and falsehood.It seeks and urges its followers to rise up against oppression since oppression is worse than slaughter as the Quran says.

But at the same time it is the most tolerant religion on earth when the question comes of other religious communities.

*Islam says that you should not abuse anyone’s religion.If the other person abuses Islam back then you would be held guilty for inciting him and considered that you yourself has abused Islam.

*Let there be no compulsion in Religion(Surah Bakarah)

*You are to preach to the whole world and carry the message of Islam to every household.But its their responsibility to accept or not.And your reward lies with your Lord.This concept is repeated many times in the Quran.

*The third pillar of Islam Zakat(poor due) can be given to the poor non Muslims if there is no poorer muslims.

I can go on and on to prove my point and if you are further interested you may call for it.
Now coming back to another issue-Muslims give a higher status to religion than country.Yes this is true.But I cant find where it is an obstacle to the loyalty to one’s country.If you are talking about Jehad then thats a different issue.You cant wage jihad on your country so long as you are residing and enjoying its fruits.You have to migrate and join Islamic forces elsewhere and then if there is oppression in your original homeland from where you had been displaced,then you can wage a jihad and free it from tyrannical rule-this is an explicit rule of jehad something which our beloved Prophet(saws) himself demonstrated in his migration to Medina from Makkah.After all loyalty to a country means not harming its security,seeking its development,honouring its position…all of which Islam itself promotes.So logically,placing Islam before India will not alter my practical loyalty to my country.
And if a substantial number of Muslims are trying to create an Islamic state from the existing Muslim states then what is bad in it?We all know that United we stand Divided we fall.But again it would be bad for critics of Islam since they would never want to see an United Islam…they are happy each time a conflict flares up between 2 muslim countries on a superflous reason and out of the selfish desires of tyrannical rulers in the muslims states itself.

I am sure you would not like to divide India along the way in which it was divided in the past between the various Hindu kingdoms..untill it was the Muslim mughal dynasty which was largely responsible for a unifies India today.Many Islamic countries are smaller than states of UP or West Bengal and all of them are smaller than India.So can I safely infer that whereas you want to remain unified yourself,you wish to see the House of Islam divided?Isnt that conspiracy on your part?So Muslims who are trying to unify the Islamic world are actually who are working heart and soul for Islam.They are not against anyone…they are simply trying to salvage their own destiny.

Yashendra ..you have given a long list of question of what would have happened to hindus if India had not been separated from pakistan.I want to ask another set of questions to you….find these answers and you will get the answer to your own questions also…

1)What would have been the fate of another 150 million muslims under Indian rule composed of mainly Hindu and accomodating corrupted and divided muslim rulers ?

2)what would have been the answer to the nuclear threat of the west and other sworn enemies in disguise of Islam from the Islamic nation?

3)Where would have been the dreams of the Muslims to lift the World Cup in cricket?

4)How many more Babri Masjids would have been broken down in front of helpless muslims?

5)How much more land belonging to Muslims would have been evacuated and settled with hindus just as jews displace muslims in palestine and Bangladeshi hindus displaced Bengal Muslims with government support?

6)What would have been the percentage of jobs of muslims in the muslim majority states of the hypothetical united indo-pak country?(in jammu and kashmir non muslims have nearly 3/4ths of government jobs whereas the state’s muslim population is more than 70 percent.Even in chinese Xingjiang province Muslims are just a paltry 30 percent in government jobs whereas it has a 98% muslim population)

7)What would have happened to the vast mineral and metal deposits in the muslim states.would they ever have found any good to the Muslims who would have been just employed as labourers to mine them out..while others enjoy its fruits.

8)Would there had been another Muslim representative at the United Nations and OIC?

9)Would there had been an Islamic army capable of defeating most European ans Jewish powers?

10)Would there have been research facilities from where muslims could have benefitted and learnt ?

11)Would there have been ever a Government based on Shariat?Or would the Muslims be ever hooted around to surrender to an Uniform civil code?

12)Would there been independent religious organizations preaching Islam and its truth or would they have been banned with effect and Islamic leaders jailed and all voices of Islam suppressed?

13)Would muslims be allowed to live a life of peace and security ?or would the likes of state supported pogroms in Gujarat be replicated in lahore and peshawar?

14)Would have the muslims enjoyed a life of dignity or would have they been marginalised out of every sphere and treated like second class citizens?

15)Would there be an independent Islamic entity ready to support brother Islamic nations in times of trial had Pakistan merged with India?

MAny such questions can be raised …so Yashendra please keep your questions within yoir confused head if you dont want to raise a hundred more…

Thanks(assuming you follow my advice)
Regards,Zarq

MYTH#4:ISLAM IS OUTDATED AND INCOMPATIBLE WITH MODERNITY:

Well my great friends how do you see modernity?
According to me Modernity encompasses the following aspects(please let me know if you have a different view)

i)Modernity implies scientific thought and approach.
ii)Modernity implies that we dont follow the jungle rules of force.
iii)Modernity implies that we dont go back to the age of caveman when we had no clothes to cover our shame.
iv)Modernity implies we break the chain of customs and traditions which are usually corrupt

Now I would want to discuss Modernity in the context of Islam:
i)A well known hadith(saying) of the Great Prophet of Islam,Muhammad(saws),states that seek for science even in China.
In those days China was far away Arabia,and mind it there were no aeroplanes to cross the mountain ranges in Iran,Afghanistan and India to reach China.Yet the Prophet(saws) advised in a commanding tone to face all these difficulties to learn science.His followers did follow his advice and that is why we have Algebra ( Al-Jebr in arabic) in Mathematics and Alkali( Al-kaali) in Chemistry.And that is why the forefather of the AK_47 ..the first gun of the world was made by scientists of Babur.So isnt that modern approach?

ii)Pre Islamic warfares were only for personal and territorial gains.However Islam put an end to that sequence.The Quran explicitly states over and over to fight only in the cause of Islam.What causes?..If Islam is attacked,if its followers are persecuted,if Islamic thoughts are prevented from the masses,and such noble causes where Islam states again explicitly that the wars of Islam should be a response to rather than initiation of a conflict.Thus the rules of jungle are replaces by the rule of Allah and as 1.3 billion Muslims will accept even in the face of defeat and humiliation that Allah is not unjust.Now a few of my critics may say that the rule of Islam invites capital punishment.Well I can just say actions speak louder than words.In India a thief can get away with a jail term of approximately 6 months or so…and never does he rectify his habit.But Islamic laws calls for chopping his hand off.Well according to you its barbarism,But I am sure according to the shopkeeper whose shop has just been visited my burglars,Islamic law is right.Dare to leave an ungaurded vegetable shop in Delhi …and you wont find a trace of where the vegetables are gone.But even jewellery shops in Dubai have no problems in leaving their shops for prayers ungaurded.Again,an Indian or for that matter most courts of the world would give a sentence of a few years of imprisonment to drug dealers.Well we all know what he becomes after he comes out…the kingpin of the drug ring!
But look at the Islamic laws..it carries death punishment.Now thats barbarism isnt that?Yet you would be astonished to find that such a law by the Talibans in Afghanistan had its opium manufacture down to just 3 percent of pre Taliban levels.Enjoy hearing that?..But sadly enough with the Taliban out of the affairs,the opium manufacture is back in full swing.If your brother is a drug addict and your family is jeopardized because of it..then I am sure you are to embrace Islam if you give a thought to it.

iii)Well the Islamic veil is supposed to be an impediment to women’s freedom.But I cant understand the fact that how does it affects a woman’s ability to achieve higher ends of life.Are you sure the Western so called civillized society and what is being imitated my the so called modern Indians…by being naked and scantily clad achieve the higher ends of life?
Or do they convert into public properties?You may enjoy girls in the nude as long as your sister is not being viewed by someone in a similar way.Then you would want your sister covered up.You wont prefer your wife to be raped by unknown men with you being forced to watch the whole scene…yet that is what the latest craze among rapists…just see the different sites of rapes..u would be surprised at the rate rapes are taking place in the so called free societies ..women treated like shit..gang bang and forced witness are just some types of fantasies that the “free women ” have to pay the price of their “freedom”.Even as you read my post a woman have been raped in America.Beware!India is catching up fast.Just ask yourself..if there are a pair of sisters..both twins ..identical..beautiful…walking down a lonely street..one in a top and mini skirt and the other in veil……and a rapist lurks in the corner-which girl will he be motivated to rape?Find the answer and imagine that twin to be your sister..you will understand from which point Islam speaks.Islam protects women and her modesty.That is why if you challenge a woman’s modesty in an Islamic court you have to produce 4 witnesses else you get lashed up.
Thus we get that Islam is the heralder of modern views since it knows that the woman is a mother,the first teacher..and she should be both modest and protected so that the child is nurtured in a healthy manner.

iv) Customs and traditions are known in Islam as Bidayat(something many muslims are sadfully involved in)…Bidayat is viewed as something not existing in Islam or some custom or tradition which has been invented after the declaration of Islam as the complete religion.As regards to Bidayat..Prophet Muhammad(saws) has said that Bidayatis(those who commit bidayat) go out of Islam as a single hair goes out of mould of unbaked bread.Thus Islam refutes any custom or tradition.It preaches a simple way of principled life dedicated to doing good and resisting evil.

So let the proponents of modern society know that Modernity has not started with the invention of your WMD’s but more than 1400 years ago…

Hello friends..there has been a lot of talk off the topic over here presumably because Muslim bashers will not leave a single chance of denigrating and falsifying Islam.

Among them Joel has emerged as the frontliner.However a close look at his posts will reveal an underlying deep hatred for Islam and refusing to reason with stark realities such as that which makes up the Islamic history.

He claims that Vedic seers saw the futility of monotheism,discarded it and instead chose monoism as the basic fundamental of Hinduism philosophy.Thus from his own statement Joel himself confesses that Hinduism as of today is a man made religion,the religion Vedic seers compiled and propagated.No doubt this fact is represented in the lack of Universal appeal and the limitation of Hinduism to the Indian sub continent even though it claims to be the oldest religion on earth.

Joel goes on to claim that Islam has no answer to the supposedly “superior” Vedic question.He further claims that Islam has no logic in itself.Oh come on Joel..our nonsense talk of supra cosmic absolute conciousness is the same sort of talk that Brahmin priests used to indulge in when explaining (did they really mean to explain or confuse the population? )religion to common man.I doubt if any person over here has understood your concept of God and religion including yashendra who lauds you as exploding Islamic “false claims”.Its a ploy of the likes of you to confuse people to utter bewilderness so that religion remains a mystery for them and then they come to you for an explanation thus fortifying your position in the society as priests….a similar ploy by the corrupt Brahmin priests for centuries already stands exposed before everyone.One thing I can be sure is that you can fool one person all the time,all the people for just one time but not all the people for all times.Its a negligience of their duty by Muslims that Islam is not dominant in India.The day Islamic missionaries start preaching Islam on the scale it was preached in the 11th century AD..that day will find you and your likes no place to hide.

Alternately I can simply wink at you and tell you that the proof of the pudding is in the eating thereof.Islam spread across continents across different civillizations proving its Universal character and message in the face of violent resistance the likes of which we do not see today since Islam is a dominant force in the world now.It has proved beyond doubt that it has appealed and has been welcomed by people of all civillizations including Indians.However what have Hinduism done in all these 5000 years of its existence when there were no other real opponents to it(Indians were a great power to reckon with in the ancient history)? If Hindus are 11 percent of World population today then its sheer by the population explosion in India since we do not find Hindu converts from other civillizations.
Conversion of others to Hinduism is far far off the topic…your very definition in the Indian Constitution is dependent on other religious identities..The Constitution states that whoever is not a Muslim,Christian,Pasrsee,Sikh or Jew is a Hindu….

So what we have at last …. a man made religion full of rituals its elite used to oppress its people economically and socially,who have no identity of their own.You call that truth?..I call it absurdity.

You accuse us Muslims of having preferred religion to Country…but we cant accuse you in the same manner since at the first place you dont have a religion to reckon with.Do you think that I am biased and exaggerating? Well then conduct a simple test among your own brethen:Ask any common hindu to define hinduism…and see how their answers validate a Quranic verse.”Deaf dumb and blind…they will not return to the true path”(Surah Bakarah).

Asif Zarq’s comments are interesting and confirm the theory of religious chauvinism!!!!!

The problem today is of this false belief that one religion is better that the other…….If you go deeper into each scripture, you will find they all have the same message……….

Whether Islam came first of Hinduism came first is not the question…………the question is abouth peaceful coexistance and universal brotherhood……..

And if the 11th century tactics were to be reintroduced in todays world for converting the populations of the world and subsequently keeping people in poverty so that they will follow the various fatwas to kill people who do not believe in the same way of life, I do not think people will be sitting and watching it as they did in the 11th century.

And all this talk of respect for the woman just fizzles out with saying TALAQ 3 times and leaving the poor woman in a lurch…….
And also how many debaucherous men convert to islam just to take advantage and of this very respectful practice towards women of the muslim religion??? by marrying upto 4 times?

And is JIHAD just to be used to kill people who do not believe in the same things that the ayotallahs do? or really the fight to remove the evil within oneself , i.e. the ego desires, lust, greed etc?

And is it really a fact that 72 virgins are waiting in heaven for the people who take innocent lives in cafes and railway stations??

Everychild that is born in the world is a HINDU….Then he is converted to a MUSLIM, CHRISTIAN, Jew, Sikh, Jain, etc etc etc…..by their parents…..And then the indoctrination of HATRED begins!!!

The Hindus have never tried to conquer any other people……..the basic teaching of the Hindu way of life is LIVE and LET LIVE……Don’t hurt others and don’t hurt yourselves……….dont be a sadist and don’t be a masochist!!!!

This is a very sensitive and important subject and needs to be addressed with respect and courtesy towards one another.
And not as has been done in this blog so far……..

Premjit…Its interesting to note that many of the likes of you are constantly harping on the same topic that Hindus do not convert any people into their own fold…But its just like the fable of the man who would say that I wont fight anyone since fighting is bad…but its actually since he doesnt have a gun to fight in the first place.What will you explain to others about Hiduism when the common hindu does not have a common God to worship or a clarity of his religion? And about your statement that every born is a Hindu..I may accept it to certain extent…Hinduism is expressed effectively in idol worship and precisely that is what we have by default in any civillization.Even before the advent of Islam in Arabia..there were many many idols..the Kaaba itself housed 313 idols of all kinds…the God of Water,the God of war,the God of sandstorm…and what not…
And we all know what happened to those so called Gods 1400 years ago…the present Hindu idols are also the same type of mis-manifestation that takes place in the absence of true guidance.Just ask yourself how many Hindus worship their Gods by understanding what they are doing….
I do not mean to hurt Hindus…and I do stand in favour of Premjit’s conclusion that we must be able to co-exist peacefully.Since this is also the view propagated by Islam…if Islam believes in Universal Brotherhood..it cant just be limited to Muslims..Islam views the Muslims and non-Muslims as two brothers of the same family of humankind..the latter as a brother who has lost the true way of living.In a hadith(saying) of the Prophet(saws) it is mentioned that on the shoulder of the believer lies the responsibility of preachin Islam to every man on earth..whether the person preached to accepts it or not is another question and irrelevant to preaching..and if a muslim fails in doing so…and his neighbour remains ignorant of Islam..then on the Day of Judgement his neighbour will catch his collar and say to Allah that this Muslim knew that Islam is the true religion,yet he never preched to me…consequently Allah will send both to Hell..one for his negligience in Duty..the other for not trying to seek the truth and remaining satisfied with the falsity he was surrounded with…
Thanks ,Zarq

Asif,

Hey, your typical bigoted Islamic views have been contradicted on many occasions by me and others on this forum and elsewhere. Your fanaticism is worn on your sleeve. When will guys like you stop parroting the same cliched lines about the superiority of Islam? Do you have any rational answers or hard proofs to establish the supremacy of the sky-god faith that is Islam?

To begin with, you criticise Hinduism for being polytheist and idolatrous but have you bothered to explore the true meaning of the Vedas, Upanishad and Gita? Do you know that polytheism, idolatory and monotheism centred around the fictional extra-cosmic god(tauheed) have been rejected by the Vedas as false creeds and in place has been expounded the rational philosophy of Monism, Non-Dualism or Advaita? According to the provable claims of Monism that One Self-Existent, Self-Contained Source manifested Itself is myraid ways to form the cosmos. On the other hand, what does Islam preach? Doesn’t it say that an extra-cosmic god called Allah manufactured the universes out of nothing? Jadoo tonaa (magic)! Is creation out of nothing possible? Can Cause ever be divorced from its Effects? So, how true are the claims of Islam? Laughable, aren’t they?

The various gods of Hinduism are not the Absolute but they constitute the Absolute in manifestation - the gods are the various farishtas or cosmic controllers of the multiple planes and so on.

Asif you scorn the beliefs of the Hindus, but have you thought how ridiculous it is for Muslims to believe that an angel came to a prophet and disclosed to him a certain amount of ordinary information that went to form the Quran. How silly this claim sounds! Can you prove the existence of this angel (Jibril)? What is the subtle material-force composition of angels? How do the subtle materials-forces connect with matter? Any answers. On hearing this tale about the angel and his revelations to Muhammad, we laugh. To even think that a fairy tale creature like an angel can materialise itself or speak to a humanbeing is sooooo stupid. And, Islam is based on this irrational claim of a mythical creature like an angel revealing information to Muhammad! Like the idols, the angel too is a fiction! What say? Or, do you reject the idol and blindly accept the story of an angel coming to Muhammad and dictating information? The information, too, is stale, second hand knowledge.

Intrestingly, the idols of the Kaaba were cast out but the tale of the (mythical) angel Jibril was accepted as truth! Besides, why wasn’t the balck stone (Sangmay Aswaad) destroyed by Muhammad alongwith the other idols? Why encircle a phallic symbol like a stone Shiv linga (Sangmay Aswaad)? Does it make sense? What hypocrisy! I call for the destruction of the Sangmay Aswaad in the Kaaba as it is another of those dumb idols. let’s get rid of the evil, black stone pillar in the Kaaba. Ok, Asif.

Did you know that Allah, Kaaba, Makkah, Madina, Sangmay Aswaad, Eid, Hajj (and all its rituals) and several other Quran terms are of Vedic-Sanskrit origin? I am laughing at your ignorance. Take care, else Nature Supreme may be forced to deal with the Quran in the same way as with the idols in the Kaaba.

Regards,

Joel Pastakia

My dear Boy Asif,

I read ur comments and found them very “enlightening”.

Let’s find out how “enlightening” Islamic beliefs really are: Ok?

For the sake of argument, let me assume that what you say about non-believers going to hell is true.

Let’s assume that after death, I’ll go to hell for being a brazen kafir and that you’ll go to heaven for being a devout believer in Allah and the stories of the Quran. Now, answer the following questions:

Poor me will be sent to hell and will be roasted there in fire and will have boiling water, as the wonderful Quran says, being continually poured down my back.

Question 1: Is hell a physical place? If so, where is your hell? Does it have a spatio-temporal location? Or does it exist in the sky or outside the universe? (Mind you the physical cosmos is a closed system!)

Question 2: If the Islamic hell is not a physical place, then what is it? Of what non-physical substances and forces (as Joel queried) is your non-physical hell made up of?

If hell is a real place,physical or non-physical, then it has to be made up of certain forces and materials.

So, Asif, if hell exists and if it is a non-physical place as it ought to be, then, can you state the non-physical materials and forces composing hell?

Question 3: How does the non-physical hell, as Joel inquired, link up with the physical forces and materials making up the physical universe?

Obviously, for non-physical devils (what are they?) and jinns (?) to come into contact with the physical universe, there has to be a connection between the non-physical forces/materials constituting hell and its evil denizens and the physical universe. Right?

NOTE:Underlying diversity of every kind (physical and/or non-physical) there HAS TO exist an underlying Unity. Or else, how can two, four or many entities exist independent of each other in violation of the eternal laws of causality.

So, Asif boy, tell us about the non-physical forces/materials making up hell and say how these non-physical forces/materials connect with the physical universe.

Let’s find out how clever that mythical Jibril was as it was him who revealed all these tales.

Question 4: In hell, will there be physical substances like boiling water, physical fires, etc? If yes, then your Islamic hell is a mere physical place, not a non-physical place. But, how can hell be a physical place? After death, can the non-physical, formless and invisible soul reside in a physical place and function physically or be subjected to physical torture? NO.

Question 5: In Islamic heaven, it is said one will come across gardens, rivers of milk, honey, wine and sexy houris for sex.

State the material and force composition of your heavens. I assume that your heavens are non-physical places, so give their non-physical material and force constitutions and connections with physical matter.

NOTE: After death, the body goes into the earth elements and something called a soul (invisible, formless and non-physical) is said to escape out of the body.

Now, Asif Boy, as the soul(being non-physical, formless and invisible), comes out of the body, what happens to it? If it goes to your heaven, then as Quran says, it’ll actually stroll in gardens, drink wine, honey and milk from beautiful rivers and have sex with houris and pearl-skinned boys.

Now, tell me, how would it be possible (after death) for a formless, invisible, non-physical soul to have physical organs so as to stroll, eat and have sex in your heaven?

Only a lunatic would believe that after death, a soul can still perform physical functions like strolling, eating, drinking and screwing. Right?

But, how can a soul possess physical organs to peform all these physical acts when obviously after death, the physical organs (mouth, hands, feet, stomach, penis, etc) perish with the rest of the physical body and are reduced to mud?

Thus, what bullshit is the Quran preaching of non-physical places like heaven being constituted of physical substances and physical phenomena and of disembodied souls being able to perform physical acts like frolicking, strolling, eating, drinking and screwing in this non-physical place called heaven?

Can a non-physical place ever have gardens, rivers of milk, honey and wine? Man, these are physical stuff that are found in a physical place like earth.

Besides, how can a soul (in the absence of the physical body and organs after death) ever be capable of eating, drinking, screwing and strolling in heaven? Does all this make even the least sense? What major contradictions the Quran has preached and fools blindly swallow these tales !

Can you prove Allah exists? Can you prove that your hells, heavens, jinns and angels exist? When both the Quran and an ignorant fool like you can not even sensibly define heaven, hell or soul, what are you talking tall for? You’re making a fool of yourself and showing the Quran in a poor light as a book preaching fairytales.

I can go on pointing out these paradoxes but these should be enough to point out the nonsense in Islamic beliefs. The Quran has become the laughing stock among those who have even a slightly rational mind.

Is this the reason why thousands of Muslim intellectuals are leaving Islam, while the population of Muslims is going up only due to the poor, illiterate Muslims breeding like rats or due to conversion of the ignorant, downtrodden, social and intellectual rejects to Islam?

PS: Allah’s chosen nation Saudi Arabia always ranks last at major intellectual competitions like the International Maths Olympiad, its score has hovered around 3 marks out of 240. Great reward for being Allah’s (?) chosen land !!!!

Your friend,
Yashendra.

Brothers: Peace ! Funny blog this.

Instead of arguing, let’s all convert to Islam if Asif Bhai can prove that: a) Allah exists, b) Angels, jinns, devils exist, c) Heaven, hell exist, d) Creation out of nothing is possible, e)Eating, drinking, sleeping, running, playing, having sex are possible in his heaven after death (Asif, what about excretion and farting? Will the soul be able to do these things after death? Boy, the soul would have to have an anus to shit and fart not to speak of the soul having limbs, mouth and penis after death to indulge in the physical sights and pleasures of heaven, d)Show the historical proof that Adam, Eve, Moosa, Abraham were real people and not make-belief book characters.

Give us proof, then preach. Isn’t this a fair proposition, Asif?

Sanjoy Parkar

My dear brother Asif why don’t you reply to all the questions with clarity???

You talk of 1400 years ago………..but what was happening in this world before that?? There is evidence of creation and life and scriptures from millions of years, about the various incarnations of the Hindu trinity.

And dear brother, whats wrong with idol worship? They are just symbols for people to identify with and keep themselves in check and on the right track. I think Joel has bought up a very logical point….why do you want the black stone piller in the KAABA? Isn’t that a form of idolatry as are all the hindu gods, who are also made out of stone?

Have you studied Vedanta, Advaita? Every seeker in India knows that Shiva is represented by the Linga and there are 100s of thousands of black stone temples in India. Shiva is known as KAABALISHWARA for 1000s of years. I have one in my house too……We worship the same black stone. Does’nt that make us brothers?

We believe in the sacredness of all objects….animate and inanimate, universal brotherhood and love and respect for women and everything else.

Just drop the rigidity and you will see that we are all the same. There is no KAFIR or infidel.
I had posted 2 links a week back. please read them again.

And please let me know the real truth behind the 72 virgins in heaven! And do YOU truly believe in these tales.

With best wishes,
Premajit

Sorry my “friends”..these days I am a bit busy with another attack from another quarter..cyber war with the Jews…who are up in propaganda against the Muslims in this current Lebanon crisis…that conflict has been essentially turned against them thanks to the help from Allah..and of course a little trick which has turned their weapon against them…

Lot of comments and lot of questions from many of you..I have read them all and would request you to give me a day or two…both to deal the crisis on another front and also to give myself some more time to arrange the answers to all of your questions in the best way.

In the meanwhile enjoy Islam bashing since these acts of yours will be recounted to you on the Day of Judgement which you ofcourse not believe yet which will eventually come to all of us.

And Yashendra I have never said that I “will” go to heaven neither that you “will” go to Hell….its upto the Judgement of Allah…I prefer to use the term “may”.

Joel,Yashendra,Premjit and Sanjoy….I will do answer all your questions..as Islam has an answer to all of them.So please be a little patient.
Thanks,Zarq

Dearest Asif,

Have you not contacted Jibril as yet to get the logical answers and hard proofs our queries? We’ve heard of people seeing angels, pink elephants, dragons and purple spiders in cases of hallucinations or drunken stupor.

I am not surprised that you are now into Jew bashing and that you’ve no time to answer our fundamental questions. We’ve encountered many ignoramuses on this and other fora and in daily meetings too. None has been able to answer a single query rationally or by providing the essential proofs. Every nonsense is to be accepted on the basis of blind beliefs.

Has it rightly been said that LOGIC is the weapon that fanatics fear the most?

By the way, when is your Judgement Day coming? Do you have any definite date in mind? Pss let me know, I’ll keep it a secret. Ok, Child?

If your faith in Islam was so perfect, I am sure a pucca believer like you would have had the perfect (intelligible) answers and proofs to our simple questions. Why buy time by giving the Israeli-Hezebollah conflict as an excuse?

Isn’t the Quran the perfect book revealed to a man in the desert by an angel (whatever that means !!!)?

So, if the Quran is so perfect, then you and thousands of “believers” like you should have had ready rational asnwers and hard proofs to support your (superstitious) beliefs. Why wait to think, find out or end up fabricating other tales that equal or exceed in irrationality 1400 year old myths of an imaginary angel jumping out of the sky and revealing third hand information to a man!

How does this basic premise of an angel dictating stale knowledge to a man (Muhammad) sound to modern, thinking, rational audiences? You can not even define an angel and you’re talking about hell, heaven and sex in heaven!!!

I am laughing….

LOVE,

Joel Pastakia

Asifbhai,

You cannot fight 2 wars at the same time….even Hitler lost on 2 fronts. Jokes apart, isnt it strange that the only people fighting with everyone right now are the followers of ISLAM.

Shias are fighting Sunnis, Mulims are fighting Jews, Hindus, Christians, believers and non-believers. Is there some secret message in this situation?

Have you ever thought that peace comes only to those who are tolerent and accept diversity?

Anyway, I do not want to raise any more questions at present. I understand that your plate is full right now and I will wait for the answers to the earlier questions.

But most importantly, please do not forget to tell us the story of the 72 virgins…..and whether you personally believe in it.

And has anyone who has blown himself up ever confirmed this tale. I am assuming that they would be able to at least communicate if they can have sex in heaven…..or wherever they are!!!

Take care..

With best wishes,

Hello friends..I am back…

Hey…what made you all think that I am scared with having to face all your rotting logic?I posted a comment that please be patient since I have another crisis on another front with an entirely different and I must say,intellectually far more advanced opponent than the present opponents I am facing off in this forum.

Well all said and done…I have come here with answers to all your “queries” which are not really queries but an effort to malign Islam.Yet the unbiased third person will be dumbfounded that Islam has an answer to such blunt accusations.

Asif Zarq

Well my first answer will be to dear Premjit…to his post on August 6th 2006…

I fear I have to continue breaking down false myths…

MYTH#5 MUSLIMS PRONOUNCE THE TRIPPLE TALAQ AND THE POOR WOMAN IS GONE…

Well firstly let me let u kno the statistics.Professor Gavin of Asia Research Institute,Singapore has come up with the numbers from his extensive study…the rates of divorce among muslims is around 0.67% in India according to him.According to the CIA worldbook..divorce rates in India is a little more than 1%.From these two statistics we can calculate by simple interpolation that divorce rates of hindus(who constitute more than 80%) is around 1.34%.This is exactly the double that of Muslims divorce rate.

That was an answer from ground realities to your age old often parroted question.It goes on to show that what a restrained and civilized communitiy the Muslims are…..and communities who are up in criticism against Islam have a bigger problem to face down their own societies.The message is simple and clear….stop thinking about the fate of others and try solving your own problems.

In fact the Muslim divorce is so rare that even a single case gets highlighted and gets the Prime Minister involved!!! like in the Shah Bano divorce case where Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi got involved.There are no parallels among Hindus in this matter.Why? since divorce is not so much concern among Hindus as among Muslims.

And why is this?

We will consider this in the light of Islamic religious views..having considered the practical statistics.
Allah says in the Quran that the divorce is hateful.its the only hateful thing allowed in Islam…since it has practical implications.
And I am so much surprised that every idoiotic ignorant fool has to comment on the speedy divorce proceedures in Islam…but no one has any time to pay attention to the speedy marraige proceedures in Islam.You can get married in just 15 min…believe me..if you have a woman willing and the money for her meher.Now this is primarily in Islam to prevent vices regarding sex.If marraiges are not satisfactory then generally the partners seek sexual gratification outside their marraige.To prevent such a catastrophic implication to society the laws of marraige and divorce are made easy in Islam.But it has been repeatedly said directly and implied that divorce is very hateful to Allah.And Muslims are committed to their religion and that is why we have the lowest divorce rates not only in India but in the whole world.Hope that answers your question……thanks

Asif alZarq

Joel has raised questions about the hereafter as presented by Islam…well here is the explanation

The fundamental question is:How can you prove the existence of hereafter, i.e. life after death?

Hereafter a logical belief

There are more than a thousand verses in the Glorious Qur’an, containing scientific facts. Many facts mentioned in the Qur’an have been discovered in the last few centuries. But science has not advanced to a level where it can confirm every statement of the Qur’an.

Suppose 80% of all that is mentioned in the Qur’an has been proved 100% correct. About the remaining 20%, science makes no categorical statement, since it has not advanced to a level, where it can either prove or disprove these statements. With the limited knowledge that we have, we cannot say for sure whether even a single percentage or a single verse of the Qur’an from this 20% portion is wrong. Thus when 80% of the Qur’an is 100% correct and the remaining 20% is not disproved, logic says that even the 20% portion is correct. The existence of the hereafter, which is mentioned in the Qur’an, falls in the 20% ambiguous portion which my logic says is correct.

Concept of peace and human values is useless without the concept of hereafter

Is robbing a good or an evil act? A normal balanced person would say it is evil. How would a person who does not believe in the hereafter convince a powerful and influential criminal that robbing is evil?

Suppose I am the most powerful and influential criminal in the world. At the same time I am an Intelligent and a logical person. I say that robbing is good because it helps me lead a luxurious life. Thus robbing is good for me.

If anybody can put forward a single logical argument as to why it is evil for me, I will stop immediately. People usually put forward the following arguments:

a. The person who is robbed will face difficulties………But it is good for me. If I rob a thousand dollars, I can enjoy a good meal at a 5 star restaurant.
b. Someone may rob you……..But No one can rob me because I am a very powerful criminal and I have many bodyguards.Robbing may be a risky profession for a common man but not for an influential person like me.
c. The police may arrest you……….I have the police on my payroll. I have the ministers on my payroll.Thus I can evade arrest through my influence.
d. Its easy money.Some may say its easy money and not hard-earned money…….But If a person has the option of earning money the easy as well as the hard way, any logical person would choose the easy way.
e. It is against humanity…….This law may be good for the emotional and sentimental people but I am a logical person and I see no benefit in caring for other human beings.
f. It is a selfish act… It is true that robbing is a selfish act; but then why should I not be selfish? It helps me enjoy life.

Thus there are no logical explanations against robbing.The same can be said for raping,cheating,murdering.So should we believe that these acts are good….Come on Joel,you behave as you are the only logical person on earth…now persuade this influential robber not to rob through your bullshit logic…..

Thus we see..that No concept of human values or good and bad without concept of hereafter

It is clear that without convincing a person about the hereafter, i.e. life after death, the concept of human values and the good or evil nature of acts is impossible to prove to any person who is doing injustice especially when he is influential and powerful.

And that is where this Hell comes in.The Hell that you poke fun at.It will be filled with men and jinns who are responsible for shattering of the peace of this world.

Another question raised repeatedly by you all is whether Hell or for that matter Heaven is a physical place or not.Well it IS a physical place.

You all will surely agree with two things:
a)A bad soul will be punished
b)A dead body cannot be hurt if we strike it

A physical body can only be hurt (that is punished with pain caused to it) only when a soul is residing in it.When the soul departs from the body , the body ceases to feel pain .Go to the nearest morgue and try kicking a dead body if u dont believe.We can logically conclude that the soul is punished through the body.

Thus if you believe that the bad and evil soul should be punished in the hereafter then you must agree to my point that this evil soul must be given a body to reside in before it can be punished.And a physical body can be tortured in a physical Hell.There is evidence in the Quran about this.

Allah say in the Glorious Qur’an:

“Those who rejectOur signs,
We shall soonCast into the Fire;
As often as their skins are roasted through,
We shall change them for fresh skins,
That they may taste the penalty:
For Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise”
[Al-Qur’an 4:56]

Hence Allah tells us that those evil souls will have physical bodies which will be roasted in Hellfire and in the process giving pain to the soul for its evil deeds.And not only this…he will be supplied with new skins as soon as his old body is destroyed.

So I think this question is answered too..
Thanks..
Asif alZarq

MYTH#6:THE BLACK STONE IN THE HOLY KAABA IS AN IDOL

What an excellent conjecture!I doubt whether you have any vague idea of Islam or are you just copying your bullshit text from some of the easily available Islam bashing websites that are as easily available as the porn sites.

The black stone is just a piece of stone in the Holy Kaaba.Its not a deity and it has a very little significance.
The reason why it is still there is that tradition has that it was the first stone that Abraham found while trying to build the Kaaba.
There is nothing in the Quran or the hadiths(sayings) of the prophet regarding this stone.

When Umar ibn al-Khattab, the second Caliph, came to kiss the stone, he said, in front of all assembled: “No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah’s Messenger kissing you, I would not have kissed you.”

And anyway for anything to be called an idol it must satisfy some characteristics such as devotees should pray to it as the central object of worship,should seek its blessings etc…characteristics which you people attach to the penis of SHIVA.

It was simply because the followers of Prophet Muhammad(saws) saw his once kiss this black stone that is why it has not been removed from the Kaaba presumably as a mark of respect towards him.Moreover Hajis at the annual Hajj try to kiss it in the same way yet most of them doesnt succed reason being the big crowd.But it doesnt affect Hajj and is just an optional extra.

So my friends I hope you see through that Islam is something different from Hinduism..there are no traces of Idol worship.No matter how much you try to implicate Islam in false allegations…Islam will remain unscathed…Inshallah…By the will of Allah ..The most Gracious and the Most Merciful..

Jazakallah Khair..

Asif alZarq

Yashendra…you have stated that “THOUSANDS OF INTELLECTUAL MUSLIMS ARE LEAVING ISLAM”

Can you please give the source of this previously unheard information?
Can you please forward their reasons for leaving Islam?

There may be few so called muslims who are “leaving” the fold of Islam(I doubt when they were ever belonging to the fold of Islam)…we call them Munafiks…or the back stabbers in religion.And this phenomenon is not new for your kind information.In the days of Prophet Muhammad(saws) there were people notable the jews who would convert to Islam and then publicly disown Islam just to spread misconceptions that Islam is not a suitable faith.Yet Islam spread and did so magnificently and remarkably.And it continues to enlighten people and thousand are coming to its fold….and mind it ….I am not as dumb as you so as to state any fact without an unbiased source for the stated information…

The CIA World Book when commenting on the demography of the United States says that Muslims population is growing at the fastest rate ..and 12 percent of this growth is because of immigration…a whooping 44 percent growth is due to conversions and remaining 44 percent due to breeding.This also contradicts your other saying that Islam is growing through birth rates..and those new converts whom you called illiterates and ignorants, have a much more knowledge base and a broader outlook than you and your folks who keep on harping “Back to Vedas”.

Your Trinity …Brahma,Vishnu and Shiva are thought to be maifestations of the supreme God Brahman.When I was reading about these characters a line flashed across my mind…”All characters in this film is fictitious.Any resemblance to any person is purely coincidental!!!!”

I was reading about Brahma…he was supposed to have five heads…had not Shiva cut of his fifth head.Wow..what an infighting amomg God’s manifestations!On top of that the supposedly creator Brahma is unable to recreate his fifth head.Now come to Shiva.He is like the damn Sunny Deol(I doubt if Sunny is Shiva’s umpteenth avatar)..the macho man in the trinity..the supposedly Destroyer.And he is kind enough to drink the poison Halahala to save the entire mankind..but wait….he doesnt take it in…he keeps it in the throat..and that is why he is called Nilkantha(meaning the one with a blue throat,colour of poisoned skin is blue as we all know).So it means that the poison affected him and what keeps him from swallowing is the fear that he will be destroyed by this same poison.

So what we have in the end?…A creator who is unable to create himself and a destroyer who is fearful of self destruction…not to mention the infighting between them!!!…Your Supreme God’s manifestations have such a great image….keep up folks..it now doesnt take a second for me to realize why you people fail to understand any sane logic.

And Yashendra…you have written something in your postscript..about Saudi Arabia being the chose country of Allah and yet being the last in the International Maths Olympiad.You know, its simply the wheel of fortume that India is technologically advanced.And Saudi Arabia is not so advanced….
But when I compare both these countries
I am forced to admit that Saudi Arabia is of course the Allah’s chosen country.Just lok at it..with all your scientific progress and your drumbeat at the International Maths Olympiad you can hardly raise your per capita income beyond the 700 dollar per year mark…whereas at almost 14000 dollars per year Saudi Arabians are 20 times..I repeat full 20 times greater than you.

Just consider…a technologically inferior country who as you say carry a 3 out of 240 in the IMO … beats you over 20 times in practical life.Your citizens go there for jobs and opportunities,they dont come to your door.Even the common people there ride in cars only the industrialists in your country can dream of.Even being situated right in the middle of the desert they have everything and you have,when compared to them,nothing.If they are the king,then you are the beggars…
Now isnt that enough to prove that they are Allah’s chosen country?
Allah has given them the gift of Oil and Gold.Their Oil will last another 150 years and who knows the wheel of fortune may turn again in their favour this time….and they may again get their position as the world’s leader in scientific knowledge as they had held a few centuries back.
After all India had all these technological progress in just about 55 years…including the development of nuclear weapons…

Think about your stupid erroneous perceptions in the light of these above(hard to digest for you I know)facts and figures…

Jazakallah Khair,
Asif alZarq

And this last post in this series is for Premjit again…

Well Premjit has an important question…a question I asked myself when I started attending my MBA classes….

WHY IS IT THAT EVERYONE HAS A PROBLEM WITH THE MUSLIMS?

Ofcourse when I checked the facts I found that Muslims were fighting the Israeli Jews in Palestine…the Chinese Buddhists in Xingjiang…the Indian Hindus in Kashmir…the Christian Serbs in Kosovo..the Atheists and Czarists in Russia…..I saw virtually that Islam has a showdown with every other religious community.

Now when I investigated these other communities I found that they were neither friends of each other ..Christians killed the jews in Germany,The hindus had their problems with the sikh separatists…the buddhists had problems with the christians….but no one was as unique as Islam..in other words it wasnt that any other community was fighting every other community at the same time.

It drew me towards a hadith(saying) of the Prophet(saws) that “Good and Evil cannot co exist with each other..as long as Islam is on earth Jihad will continue in any part of the earth..Muslims will not get peace from the Kafirs even if they wanted to settle down peacefully”

Having studied all these facts I concluded that the present showdown depicts..on one side Islam and on the other side ( may or may not be combined) forces of Kufr.

Now this can only mean two things….Either there are many truths fighting against one falsehood…or one truth fighting against many falsehoods….Judging is now easy for the unbiased third person..there cannot be more than one truth…..
So the present wars against Islam on all possible fronts is also a proof of its truth.

So Premjit if Hitler lost the war on 2 fronts …the reason is not that he was fighting on 2 fronts..the reason is that he was fighting for his own selfish gains and not for Islam or good.Muslims are permitted to fight and take up arms only against the evil and the oppressors…

Bye for the time being friends……

I will soon check back and you may post as many queries for me ..I will always come back to answer them back..since this is my mission..to restore the image of Islam and clear misconceptions surrounding it…to frustrate attempts to malign its image

Jazakallah Khair
Zarq

Daer All,

The Muslims are fighting with people of every community and also among themselves what with Sunnis, Shias, Ahmediyas and Wahabis at each other’s throats. This usually happens with those possessing juvenile and fictional ideas about the laws of Existence. Delusions about the nature of Truth manifest themselves in argumentative clashes; without the least proofs or sensible reasons, a Muslim like Asif Boy, blindly swallows tales of how an angel (?) jumped down from heaven (?) and then went on to narrate some old information alongwith lots of cock-and-bull stories about creation out of nothing, 7 heavens being piled one on top of the other above the carpet-like earth with lamps hanging from the first heaven, how out of smoke (dukhaan) arose the universe due to a fiat from some god called Allah (a Sanskrit word) who resides out of the universe or in the clouds, how an ape jumped out of a rock and became a prophetess, how Sulaiman talked with ants, how Muhammad rode a winged horse into the aerial heavens and so on…Then, these myths apart, there is no archaeological or other forms of hard historical proof to show that Ibrahim, Adam, Moosa, Isa, ever existed….

Naturally, cock and bull stories revolving around a mythical creature like an angel’s revelations are going to damage the mind-emotion-body balance of Muslims and coupled with this is the excessive in-breeding that goes on in the Muslim community that is responsible for choking up and damaging their genes which has showed up in deficiencies of all kinds in most Muslims.

Not a single Muslim nation is advanced in any creative field, they rank last in every way. On the contrary, Islamic theocracies have made it compulsory for Muslims and non-Muslims in their lands to believe that fictional entities like angels, jinns, houris exist and that the Quran was the product of one such angel called Jibril, etc, etc, etc.

A religion that bases itself on a claim to superiority on the teachings of mythical characters like angels and jinns can not even be considered to be a sensible philosophy!

By the way, algebra, astronomy, surgery, chemistry,aeraunautics, etc had their beginning in India thousands of years ago. The Arabs translated ancient Sanskrit texts and adapted the knowledge and gave it to the Europeans in turn. Every scholarly proof exists to verify this statement of mine.

PS: Asif, Israel is winning the war not because of a trick of your god Allah as you’ve stupidly said but because the Jewish nation is superior to all the Arab nations in every constructive field. I wonder what your Allah is doing these days as lakhs of backward Muslims are getting slaughtered around the world and what with Muslim nations being way behind every other “infidel” nation in science, technology, healthcare, education, philosophy, etc.

Happy dreaming, Asif.

We would like to hear other Islamic cock and bull stories from you as it helps us to relax after a hard day’s work (eg, the temperature in hell, the source of fuel to keep those hellfires burning eternally, the vital statistics of the sexy houris in heaven, the duration of an orgasm in heaven, the organs which you’ll need in heaven by which you’ll couple with the houris, the way you’ll excrete after eating honey and drinking milk from the rivers flowing in your heaven, etc).

Regards,

Yashendra

Mr Asif,

Vedic philosophy is based on the provable laws of Cosmic Consciousness; everything, including physical matter, is considered an expression of Cosmic Consciousness (Chit Shati) , Chit Shakti itself arises from Brahman (Absolute Consciousness). This is very logical and does not disobey scientific laws of conservation, causeand effect, evolution, etc. Islam preaches creation out of nothing as Mr Joel has said. This creation out of nothing by some unproven god called Allah is pure fiction. It is not possible to create something out of nothing. Now, with our Vedas that take Cosmic Consciousness as the material and functional basis of everything, colourful metaphors such as 5-headed cosmic power Brahma, Shive drinking poison, etc were made up to explain in simple mannner the actual movements of the various planes of Cosnciousness in cosmos and how they manifest from a single source and how they relate and function with each other.

Consciousness is a provable fact that even quantum physics asserts; today physicists say that the universe is nothing but Consciousness-Field force in manifestation. So, there is every proof to validate the philosophy of the Vedas.

But what about Quran? Not a word about cosmic consciousness, cause-effect, conservation, etc. It has only illogical stories of creation out of nothing, mythical creatures like angels giving messages, heavens in sky or don’t know where, virgins in heaven, milk in heaven, -all fiction as Joel says. This fiction forms basis of Islam.

Prabha Ghate

An important question hurled at Muslims repeatedly is that Why are most of the Muslims fundamentalists and terrorists?

Answer:

This question is often hurled at Muslims, either directly or indirectly, during any discussion on religion or world affairs. Muslim stereotypes are perpetuated in every form of the media accompanied by gross misinformation about Islam and Muslims. In fact, such misinformation and false propaganda often leads to discrimination and acts of violence against Muslims. A case in point is the anti-Muslim campaign in the American media following the Oklahoma bomb blast, where the press was quick to declare a ‘Middle Eastern conspiracy’ behind the attack. The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces.

Let us analyze this allegation of ‘fundamentalism’ and ‘terrorism’:

1. Definition of the word ‘fundamentalist’

A fundamentalist is a person who follows and adheres to the fundamentals of the doctrine or theory he is following. For a person to be a good doctor, he should know, follow, and practise the fundamentals of medicine. In other words, he should be a fundamentalist in the field of medicine. For a person to be a good mathematician, he should know, follow and practise the fundamentals of mathematics. He should be a fundamentalist in the field of mathematics. For a person to be a good scientist, he should know, follow and practise the fundamentals of science. He should be a fundamentalist in the field of science.

2. Not all ‘fundamentalists’ are the same

One cannot paint all fundamentalists with the same brush. One cannot categorize all fundamentalists as either good or bad. Such a categorization of any fund amentalist will depend upon the field or activity in which he is a fundamentalist. A fundamentalist robber or thief causes harm to society and is therefore undesirable. A fundamentalist doctor, on the other hand, benefits society and earns much respect.

3. I am proud to be a Muslim fundamentalist

I am a fundamentalist Muslim who, by the grace of Allah, knows, follows and strives to practise the fundamentals of Islam. A true Muslim does not shy away from being a fundamentalist. I am proud to be a fundamentalist Muslim because, I know that the fundamentals of Islam are beneficial to humanity and the whole world. There is not a single fundamental of Islam that causes harm or is against the interests of the human race as a whole. Many people harbour misconceptions about Islam and consider several teachings of Islam to be unfair or improper. This is due to insufficient and incorrect knowledge of Islam. If one critically analyzes the teachings of Islam with an open mind, one cannot escape the fact that Islam is full of benefits both at the individual and collective levels.

4. Dictionary meaning of the word ‘fundamentalist’

According to Webster’s dictionary ‘fundamentalism’ was a movement in American Protestanism that arose in the earlier part of the 20th century. It was a reaction to modernism, and stressed the infallibility of the Bible, not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record. It stressed on belief in the Bible as the literal word of God. Thus fundamentalism was a word initially used for a group of Christians who believed that the Bible was the verbatim word of God without any errors and mistakes.

According to the Oxford dictionary ‘fundamentalism’ means ‘strict maintenance of ancient or fundamental doctrines of any religion, especially Islam’.

Today the moment a person uses the word fundamentalist he thinks of a Muslim who is a terrorist.

5. Every Muslim should be a terrorist

Every Muslim should be a terrorist. A terrorist is a person who causes terror. The moment a robber sees a policeman he is terrified. A policeman is a terrorist for the robber. Similarly every Muslim should be a terrorist for the antisocial elements of society, such as thieves, dacoits and rapists. Whenever such an anti-social element sees a Muslim, he should be terrified. It is true that the word ‘terrorist’ is generally used for a person who causes terror among the common people. But a true Muslim should only be a terrorist to selective people i.e. anti-social elements, and not to the common innocent people. In fact a Muslim should be a source of peace for innocent people.

6. Different labels given to the same individual for the same action, i.e. ‘terrorist’ and ‘patriot’

Before India achieved independence from British rule, some freedom fighters of India who did not subscribe to non-violence were labeled as terrorists by the British government. The same individuals have been lauded by Indians for the same activities and hailed as ‘patriots’. Thus two different labels have been given to the same people for the same set of actions. One is calling him a terrorist while the other is calling him a patriot. Those who believed that Britain had a right to rule over India called these people terrorists, while those who were of the view that Britain had no right to rule India called them patriots and freedom fighters.

It is therefore important that before a person is judged, he is given a fair hearing. Both sides of the argument should be heard, the situation should be analyzed, and the reason and the intention of the person should be taken into account, and then the person can be judged accordingly.

7. Islam means peace

Islam is derived from the word ‘salaam’ which means peace. It is a religion of peace whose fundamentals teach its followers to maintain and promote peace throughout the world.

Thus every Muslim should be a fundamentalist i.e. he should follow the fundamentals of the Religion of Peace: Islam. He should be a terrorist only towards the antisocial elements in order to promote peace and justice in the society.

So now this issue is resolved….
Albeit I think people who have a habit of judging everything in the Saffron light will hardly be satisfied …. Folks its time to change your ideas and see that what you oppose is Peace….

No other religion names itself in such a way as Islam..
Christianity…the followers of Christ
Hinduism….fragmented religion of people living in the land beyond Indus(root for Hindu.ism being added in the modern English dictionary)
Buddhism….followers of Gautama Buddha

and so on..

only Islam means peace..no other religion has its name as peace.Isnt that a fact to reckon with?
Think about it….

Thanks,
Asif alZarq

Hello friends……

There is another repeated misconception forwarded against Islam..that it is a divisive force.Proponents of this theory cite as examples the exixtence of different schools of thoughts in Islam..the Shias,the Sunnis,the Wahabis,etc etc etc…

Well…ISLAM has nothing to do with these….its a man made divisions which are in fact shunned by Islam in the strongest terms..and its also the reason why Muslims fail to understand that their backwardness have something to do with these sectarian strifes which prevents a view of the real values that Islam stresses upon…The following points will illustrate my point

1. Muslims Should be United

It is a fact that Muslims today, are divided amongst themselves. The tragedy is that such divisions are not endorsed by Islam at all. Islam believes in fostering unity amongst its followers.

The Glorious Qur’an says:

“And hold fast,
All together, by the rope
Which Allah (stretches out for you),
and be not divided among yourselves;”
[Al-Qur’an 3:103]

Which is the rope of Allah that is being referred to in this verse? It is the Glorious Qur’an. The Glorious Qur’an is the rope of Allah which all Muslims should hold fast together. There is double emphasis in this verse. Besides saying ‘hold fast all together’ it also says, ‘be not divided’.

Qur’an further says,

“Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger”
[Al-Qur’an 4:59]

All the Muslim should follow the Qur’an and authentic Ahadith and be not divided among themselves.

2. It is Prohibited to make sects and divisions in Islam

The Glorious Qur’an says:

“As for those who divide
Their religion and break up
Into sects, thou hast
No part in them in the least:
Their affair is with Allah:
He will in the end
Tell them the truth
Of all that they did.”
[Al-Qur’an 6:159]

In this verse Allah (swt) says that one should disassociate oneself from those who divide their religion and break it up into sects.

But when one asks a Muslim, “who are you?”, the common answer is either ‘I am a Sunni, or ‘I am a Shia’. Some call themselves Hanafi, or Shafi or Maliki or Humbali. Some say ‘I am a Deobandi’, while some others say ‘I am a Barelvi’.

3. Our Prophet was a Muslim

One may ask such Muslims, “Who was our beloved prophet (pbuh)? Was he a Hanafi or a Shafi, or a Humbali or a Maliki?” No! He was a Muslim, like all the other prophets and messengers of Allah before him.

It is mentioned in chapter 3 verse 52 of Al-Qur’an that Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim.

Further, in chapter 3 verse 67, Al-Qur’an says that Ibrahim (pbuh) was not a Jew or a Christian but was a Muslim.

4. Qur’an says call yourselves Muslim

If anyone poses a Muslim the question who are you, he should say “I am a MUSLIM, not a Hanafi or a Shafi”. Surah Fussilat chapter 41 verse 33 says
“Who is better in speech
Than one who calls (men)
To Allah, works righteousness,
And says, ‘I am of those
Who bow in Islam (Muslim)?’ “
[Al-Qur’an 41:33]

The Qur’an says “Say I am of those who bow in Islam”. In other words, say, “I am a Muslim”.

The Prophet (pbuh) dictated letters to non-Muslim kings and rulers inviting them to accept Islam. In these letters he mentioned the verse of the Qur’an from Surah Ali Imran chapter 3 verse 64:
Say ye: “Bear witness
That we (at least)
Are Muslims (bowing
To Allah’s Will).”
[Al-Qur’an 3:64]

5. Respect all the Great Scholars of Islam

We must respect all the great scholars of Islam, including the four Imaams, Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi, Imam Humbal and Imam Malik (may Allah be pleased with them all). They were great scholars and may Allah reward them for their research and hardwork. One can have no objection if someone agrees with the views and research of Imam Abu Hanifa or Imam Shafi, etc. But when posed a question, ‘who are you?’, the reply should only be ‘I am a Muslim’.

Some may argue by quoting the hadith of our beloved Prophet from Sunan Abu Dawood Hadith No. 4579. In this hadith the prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said, “My community will be split up into seventy-three sects.”

This hadith reports that the prophet predicted the emergence of seventy-three sects. He did not say that Muslims should be active in dividing themselves into sects. The Glorious Qur’an commands us not to create sects. Those who follow the teachings of the Qur’an and Sahih Hadith, and do not create sects are the people who are on the true path.

According to Tirmidhi Hadith No. 171, the prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said, “My Ummah will be fragmented into seventy-three sects, and all of them will be in Hell fire except one sect.” The companions asked Allah’s messenger which group that would be. Where upon he replied, “It is the one to which I and my companions belong.”

The Glorious Qur’an mentions in several verses, “Obey Allah and obey His Messenger”. A true Muslim should only follow the Glorious Qur’an and the Sahih Hadith. He can agree with the views of any scholar as long as they conform to the teachings of the Qur’an and Sahih Hadith. If such views go against the Word of Allah, or the Sunnah of His Prophet, then they carry no weight, regardless of how learned the scholar might be.

If only all Muslims read the Qur’an with understanding and adhere to Sahih Hadith, Inshallah most of these differences would be solved and we could be one united Muslim Ummah

Thanks…
alZarq Asif

Dear Asif,

Instead of profusely quoting illogical and unverifiable verses from the Quran and making it a bigger laughing stock, why don’t you begin by giving us sound reasons and hard proofs to support the declarations given in the Quran on hell, heaven, soul, etc? Can you prove a thing? Or give rational answers?

Stop making a fool of yourself, give us rational answers and evidences.

By the way, if heaven or hell is a physical place as you assume, then, obviously, your heaven can not be a spiritual place that innately guarantees supernatural powers and immortality to the disembodied souls entering there.

If as the Quran and you ignorantly assume that heaven is a physical place, then naturally it follows that heaven is governed by physical laws -the same that govern the physical universe.

But, under the sway of the physical laws, neither can one achieve immortality (as everything that comes to birth decays and dies) nor can unfermented or fermented rivers of milk, honey or wine flow in a physical place, neither can one physically function in a physical place without organs (hands, feet, digestive system, reproductive and excretory systems or respiratory system).

So, in your physical heaven somewhere up in the sky, how could a bodiless soul function? How can rivers of milk/honey/wine flow? How could a formless, non-physical soul, in the absence of physical organs/nervous system/muscular system/reproductive system/endocrine system, function? By the way, where is your physical heaven located?

Can you give the date of Judgement Day?

To say that the soul grows a new physical body in your physical heaven is a crude conjecture.

Do you have actual proofs to show how in your physical heaven a disembodied soul acquires a new physical body to function?

Can you prove that there exists within the boundaries of our closed physical cosmos a physical heaven in which the physical laws are blatantly violated? Can you prove that creation out of nothing is possible? Can you demonstrate the existence of angels?

Do all this first before dumping your Islamic gibberish on others!

PS: Saudi has been blessed by the god Allah with a most polluting, non-renewable resource - crude oil (that’ll run out within 70 years). With western technology, the oil is being drilled, refined, stored, transported. Why didn’t Allah bless the Arabs with brains to develop the sophisticated technology needed to mine petroleum? It beats me. The Arabs are living temporarily luxurious lives due to the oil that’s being mined by western companies using western technologies. After the oil runs out, Saudi and other Arab lands will once again be reduced to penury. Having no intellectual capital to harness, the poor dumb Saudis will be ignored by the west then and will be easily conquered or bombed out of existence.

To even compare Saudi with an intellectual giant like India shows your intellectual poverty. India and China are the emerging scientific, economic superpowers of tomorrow. Does Saudi have anything remotely comparable to our famed IITs, TIFR, BARC, ISRO, IIM, IISc, etc? Can Saudi attract the volumes of foreign investments that India and China are getting from the world’s best companies? Can Saudi manufacture even a toothpaste on its own?

Saudi Arabia is a parasite nation living off the technological inventions of the West. The West will use Saudi like a condom as long as the oil lasts, then dump it or conquer the impoverished Saudis.

The Sultan and businessmen of Saudi Arabia are already preparing to flee Saudi Arabia once the oil is over and are busy ammassing wealth so as to buy safe passages to the west or elsewhere. They know well enough that once the oil wells run dry, the western nations will dump it, no longer will these parasites be able to live lavishly nor will they be able to compete intellectually with successful nations. That day is not far off. This harsh fact is known to all.

Asif, as the Black Stone in the Kaaba is not sacred though Muhammad hugged, kissed and wept over it, then let’s call for its destruction. Why preserve a worthless stone pillar, circumbualte it, bow before it when, as you say, it holds no spiritual significance? Let’s throw the Black Stone out of the Kaaba. Ok?

Finally, you talk tall about SOUL. Let’s get its definition from the Quran. What exactly do you mean by soul? Of what materials and forces is it composed of? How was it manufactured? How does it enter the body? Through what and how does it exit the body? How does soul connect with mind, emotions and physical matter? How does the bodiless soul, after death, acquire a new physical body in your (fictional)physical heaven or hell? Are there physical parents in your physical heaven who sexually produce a body for the disembodied soul to enter so that it can be born in heaven? GIVE ME THE PRECISE MECHANISMS, SUPPORTING RATIONAL REASONS AND PROOFS.

Bye for now,

Joel

Joel…

Unverifiable verses????Well dear billions of people have verified these verses.Do you think that you are the greatest intellectual verifier of Quranic verses…You want to expound the myth that you know all about the Quran..its history,each and every of its verses and the traditions and Hadiths associated with them..I must then applaud you as a great scholar of Islam …is it the fact?Surely not…since if that had been the fact we all would have had you in the news and as a known figure.Today whoever is a commentor on Islam,positive or negative…are all well known persons.This atleast proves that you are as ignorant of the Quran as your mentors who write all those stupid things about Islam without even trying to verify that what they are saying is correct or not..whether it conforms to Islamic standards or not…making a laughing stock of their comments…Muslims know these tactics very well since they are not new…and people like you have been there through centuries…

The people in this forum can easily judge that the likes of you harp more on trying to prove that others religions are false…my religion Islam and its truth,already verified by billions of people,compels me to establish it as the only correct religion…and that is expected and understandable since I am a Muslim.But your religion,Hinduism or whatever it is,clearly asks you to attack others beliefs and that too by false propositions that do not stand ground…which is why your comments centre about proving that Islam and the Quran are false(Astagferullah!).I think in the beginning you tried to prove that how tolerant Hindus are..that they never try to persuade others into their beliefs…but your actions seem to be just the opposite ..you try by all means to falsify Islam…thus it can mean two things..either you are not a devout Hindu OR that your religion Hinduism favours attacks on other faiths…by your comments in favour of Hinduism you prove yourself to be a devout follower of hinduism…hence it is clearly proved that your attacks against Islam is a teaching of your religion and since this contradicts your earlier statements that Hindus never attack others…it only goes on to prove that you are a liar whose only motto is not to discuss religion but to malign Islam by any means….even if they are illogical and baseless.And since you are a devout Hindu…by an extension your religion is also a damn lie..

The biggest fool in this Forum…you ask to prove the existence of Allah..of Heaven and Hell…the date of judgement day…etc.

Any religion is based on faith…if you really see Hell..do you think you will remain a Hindu…you will automatically convert to Islam.

The creator of this world wanted to test every individual soul by sending him to this world…and test whether he believes in Allah without seeing Him…you all must admit that you were not given the choice of whether to be born or not..whether to come to this world or not..Islam says exactly this same thing …that men and jinns have been sent to the world only to worship Allah…note the word “sent” meaning that we didnt have the choice of coming or not
coming……Islam views the world as a place where humans are put to test by giving them free will..whether they do good deeds or bad deeds..and accordingly they are sent to heaven or Hell…

Joel finds all these propositions very bad for society…what a conjecture..you try to falsify a religion which is in favour of an equitable and just society and which enjoins upon its followers to do good and gives them hope of reward in the hereafter and also tries to desist them from bad deeds with a punishment for it….If this is a bad idea then what alternative do you have ???

Clearly..there is no answer..

Thus if the life of a man is a test and the world his examination Hall,..then we can have only the question paper before us…we cannot have the answer sheet supplied to us.If we see Hell and its fires..then we all will become good..and there will be no merit left in the test for the soul…the purpose of Allah to test us will be defeated.Hence we cannot see the Hell or its punishment in the living world.So please stop all your nonsense talk about the composition of Hell and how it will be hosting the souls…

By such talk you just tend to make yourself look like a clown…ignorant,unimportant,valueless,illogical person.

You make me laugh again when you hold up the examples of IITs and IIMs.Do you know the fact that India faces a crises what is known as “Brain Drain”.Most of the graduates of these institutions find plush jobs in foreign countries..mainly the USA…and these same giant corporations come back to India and invest millions ..but wait..they take back much much more than what they invest..are you talking about these investment which rob India of all her limited resources..slowly driving her to penury..see the median salary of Indian engineers..its just hovering around 5000 mark…with inflation around 6 percent p.a what value does this salary have not to speak of the thousands of engineers who sit at home with their degrees.
Do you know that MSc holders are becoming rickshaw pullers in India?
Do you know that India has the world’s largest number of jobless MBA’s?
Do you know that there has been a record increase in the number of suicides among graduates?

This is your stark reality…a reality in which the technical achievements of Indian sciences have failed to reach its people…it has hardly percolated the layers of the high class.
You presume that the saudis dont know how to manufacture tooth pastes…goes on to show how ignorant you are..last month itself the Saudi scientists have unveiled a robot which has almost all the capabilities of a Japanese robot launched earlier in 2005..Dont underestimate anyone…

And the Indian companies are at a loss fighting their Chinese counterparts who somehow happen to sell everything at a lower price.Just see your landscape…its dotted with KFC’s and HSBC’s….you are at a loss dear…soon the whole of the Indian population will be at a mercy of foreign giant corporations..and its not my view alone…Amartya Sen..the noted economist and Nobel prize winner has the same view.

So at the end you have a economy subject to a neo clonialism of MNC’s…Compare with hard facts that the BSE,the nation’s main Stock Exchange went down 4000 points roughly in 1 week..thanks to the withdrawl of much of the FDI you boasted so much in your post.Do you know how many thousands of Indian investors lost valuable money to foreign companies?

Deplore your situation ..but that is not feasable given that your whole time goes on to Islam bashing.

O you brainless kids…when will you see reality?

Another thing…technological improvements does not itself guarantee that your society is good…look at Russia…it has a much larger arsenal and lot more technologies…yet poor poor Russia is now struggling to keep itself from falling apart…not to speak of the facelosses it had recently in every international forum.You need the religion of peace to stabilize your society..which neither Hinduism nor Atheism provides.

And You came up with wrong findings…the oil of Saudi Arabia will last for another 150 years and not 70 years as claimed by you.And if oil is so polluted for you..then why do you all hanker after the Arabian nations ..an oil embargo against india will send its businesses reeling…do you know that?It had been proved in the 1973 Oil crises where a joint embargo on Oil had most of the World economies into recessions.

If in the mediaval world when there was no easy access to knowledge..Islam could inspire the Arabians to seek knowledge and science and which took them in 100 years to own the biggest empire of the Earth at that time..and to establish Universities and learning centers which were unmatched in their period…..So what makes you think Joel that in the next 30 years or so these same Arabians will remain the same backward class that you choose to describe them as…Do you know that a whole new generation of Arabians spend their time in American,Australian,British and French Universities?When this generation comes back home..do you expect the Arabians to remain in the same state?Of course not.And remember..these people are the fore runners of Islam…not like your people …who would go to the US,change names marry a prostitute,gain a green card and shun their country,people and even their parents..

Again…you prove yourself a fool since you fail to understand my point about the Black Stone.I doubt if you have ever read my posts clearly or whether you are interested only in your bullshit talk about something you dont know about ….

So I have to make you understand by a simpler logic as I should have explained to a kid…you seem to be no better than one..

Suppose you have a son…and he dies early..he was your only son…Then what will you do?Most parents in such a situation will tend to preserve all their son’s belongings and whatever he used during his lifetime….as a token of his memory.
So also the black stone is a token memory of my Prophet(saws)’s kissing it…Why should I throw it out?

At present the only things that should be thrown out are the idols from your temples.You want to retain them as sources of concentration..I doubt how much concentration will sexy Parvati offer …

The only exception to this rule can be Godess Kali..but yet caution…keep her hidden from a negro’s view else a rape case might have to be lodged in the nearest police station in favour of this godess!!!

Bye
Asif Zarq

Joel,
Nice way to hide the falsity in your religion.But deal all..just use this material to propose the Hindu hardliners to scroll down from their positions in India…they were also supposedly following your Vedic philosophy….and tell thim not to arise the Satanic “chit shakti” in their blind and misled followers so that Muslims in different parts of India can live in peace and not face the pogroms as in Gujarat….

And if you correctly note the position of Jews throughout their history of existence then you will note that they are under a wrath of Allah.Allah says in the Quran that the Jews have failed in their promise of worship and as such they will never be allowed to live in the Promised Land in peace which Allah had bestowed upon them after saving them from Pharaoh.

Hence throughout history we see that Jews were repeatedly displaced from Jerusalem at the hands of the Byzantium,Roman empires,then by the Muslims and again by the crusaders of Europe and still today when they have established their Jewish state ..they have no peace.When they were slaugtered by Hitler,they rose to the heights in commerce in Europe.Again they are reaching similar heights in Israel but then again their curse will follow them wherever they go.
And dont think Israel is surviving on its own..the bunker bursting bombs and its missiles and the naval warship designs and its nuclear facilities are all a product of American support,help and nourishment.The day we have an anti Semitic governbment their in the USA..this so called Israel will fall as a pack of cards.Just claiming two victories in 1948 and 1967 they think that they have won over history.But 1973 war showed that their army can be defeated too…and so the Sinai Region went back to the Egyptians.And the present war shows that a disciplined contingent of 1200 Hezbollah fighters are able to hold off entire contingents of the Israeli army numbering no less than 30000.Come on guys wake up..with a nuclear Pakistan and an almost nuclear Iran and in the decades to come we will Inshallah have many nuclear armed Islamic countries to reckon with
…these will discourage the enemies of Islam from interfering with its matters.And conventional forces will no longer be able to save America’s puppet in Israel.Its days are numbered.And Hindus here in India dont rejoice..The rise of Muslims is a near future…dont forget that communities lagging behind in history have come out as superpowers repeatedly

*All those kicked out of Europe went on to establish the Americas which saved them from Hitler’s conquestial designs.

*The Jews were slaughtered ..the greatest slaughter to be faced by any community…6 million of them…heralded back as the same powerful traitor as had been Hitler

*Indians reeling under the most brutal and oppressive regime of 200 years of British rule stood back on its feet to become a nuclear power.

Hundreds of such examples can be recounted as such…you are fools to reckon only the present.The present backwardness of Muslims is just a prelude to the new revolution among them which will have an impact here in India and elsewhere in the world.And we have still not forgotten the 700 years rule of India by Islam…55 years under sqabbling corrupted polititians and a dead democracy you take pride in..these are not enough to disprove the fact that Hindus have a slave like mentality which had been exposed again and again in history and is being considerably exposed even as we talk about Vedas in this forum…just use your bullshit to convince the masses of your people to try living a dignified life under the present system of your society…..

You rejoice at the anarchy in Muslim countries due to internal revolutions…but you fail to understand that Muslims have an inherent nature of resisting corruption and not living with it as their faith Islam orders them to shun all types of corruption and fight against it.
But you and your coward lot wil not understand this…you are happy to live under corrupt politicians,exploitative police,gunda raaj and the religious leadership of those corrupt Swamis who end up in Jails!Your corruption evrywhere is so rampant that every film released in India has this as their central theme..and they are a huge success too. But I think Joel will protest saying that Hindus are “tolerant” so they prefer not to wake up to such grave self destructive situations…bloody cowardice is what you all have in your veins.You can just slay unarmed women and children as in Gujarat,that too with state political and police support,try doing it on your own guts if you have the courage.I presume that they too had learnt the Vedas and “enlightened” themselves on how to perform mass murders and how to rape women and throw children into fire.

And you want to know the vital statistics of the houris..All I can say is that I have never seen them and neither such explicit sexually satisfactory fantasy stories exist in Islam..since Islam and its texts are not the likes of KAMASUTRA..well why dont look into your temples for your extra sexual energy to be dissipated?The Hindu Goddesses such as Parvati and Lakshmi are quite sexy and wear revealing dresses and I presume will be enough to arise a weak orgasm in you after your “hard day’s work”!And as for me..I would prefer to believe in the chastity of Sita…the ignorant Ram would never believe in it and send her repeatedly through tests..if he had been in modern days he would have carried out vaginal tests of Sita…but I as a muslim would believe in the modesty of Sita as we have far greater respect for women than you and your so called Gods..I would convert Sita to Islam and keep her as my beautiful wife.Hanumaan may come along with his protests but given the coward and corrupt nature of Hindus it would be enough for me to bribe him with a pair of bananas!!!

And Joel please stop being a coward and coming out in this forum with different names as Prabha Ghate and Sanjoy Parkar….People need solid logic and hard facts to stand upon …not a greter number of names forwarding your vague and incomplete view…I doubt if Yashendra and premjit are different people too..or just your “avatar”…

Thanks all,
Asif Zarq

I challenge you Joel and your clones to come up with a Vedic solution to India’s problems…

If you can do so..then show your face over here….but if you cannot..and of a surety you cannot..then just keep the Hell out of here..

Search it all life…yet you will never find it…the only solution is the mass conversion to Islam…the only way to prosperity.

Bye for now,
Asif

Dear Asif and Zack,

Joel, Prabha, Yashendra and Sanjoy are not one person but individuals in their own right. We are part of a group that interests itself in bursting myths - be it Islamic, Hindu, Christian, Zoroastrian or Judaic. We sound alike as we meet regularly (residing as we do on one campus). Our tone, vocabulary and thoughts may come across as similar since we brainstorm on an almost daily basis - that’s infectious and may have turned us into clones! I assure you whatever I’ve divulged is true. Premajit is not part of our group.

Love,

Joel

CONCLUDING MESSAGE:

Friends,

It’s now been proved beyond doubt that Asif is not only an irrational Muslim fanatic but an anti-national character. Perhaps, he’s part of the banned SIMI or an ISI agent.

Even if he’s not, Asif is clearly against his own beloved motherland, India, from whose bosom has flowed the highest knowledge that has inspired and feed every religion, science, art and philosophy. Even the old Arabic texts acknowledge their source of information - India.

It truly saddens me to learn that a person can reduce himself to such degraded depths that he hates his own motherland and harbours the worst illusions about Truth and though he accuses others of wanting to foist their individual religious ideas on the world, yet, Asif, too, is no different as he desires that the world be converted to his perverted way of thinking.

Has he not understood the universal plan that has Unity underlying Diversity as its basis?

How can one form of religion, philosophy, art or culture capture the whole of humanity when human natures are so diverse? Is it not apparent that each religion, though fundamentally united at the base, caters to different mindsets? The Vedanta, for instance, has become the delight of mystics, intellectuals and quantum physicists, Islam is admired for its loyalty, determination and brotherhood it inspires in people, Christianity for its servicefulness, Buddhism for its emphasis on compassion.

Different human types may find a religion suited to their unique temperament. But, one can’t be under the false impression that all human beings, irrespective of their proclivities, can be forced to follow one particular stream of thought and practice. Will Nature allow it? No.

Several attempts were made by ignorant people and fanatics in the past (and in the present too) to compel all people to adopt a singular system of thought or practice but every time their crude attempts have been thwarted by Nature as Diversity (with an underlying Unity) is the explicit theme of Nature on every plane of Existence. Thus, fanatical attempts to impose only this or only that way of life have always failed and will always fail.

Those like Asif who have not the least proof or a single rational answer to a single pertinent query and blinded by their bigotry will always see otherwise without understanding this critical plan of Nature on every scale upto the Absolute Source.

Asif, if you hate India so much, why don’t you shift to Pakistan or Saudia Arabia and partake of their rich fruits (of high wisdom ?) in religion, science, technology?

Many grads from IIT, our friends, have taken up plum jobs in Saudia and have all the same story to recount - they are shocked at the extremely low standards in their respective scientific disciplines there (though they’re enjoying the inflated payscales and prestige).

In Saudia, an IIT graduate commands such great respect from the awed Arabs that even a last ranker from any of the IITs is given first preference over toppers from Saudi technical colleges and are even welcomed more that the US trained Saudis. (Most Saudi nationals studying in the US are accepted in C or D grade universities and are accepted by these US universities because they pay for their education and do not depend on scholarships but where talent is concerned, well, we know what to expect). How many Nobel laureates or Field Medal or IMO or IPhO or IChO winners has Saudia produced? Not one. Whatever they have is borrowed from others, their institutions are flooded with foreigners running the show for them, home talent is almost zero! Apart from the phallic stone in the Kaaba, they have nothing to boast about.

I’d asked Asif to support the idea that demands that the black stone be thrown out from the Kaaba as it’s a worthless bit of clay. He refuses for sentimental reasons as his prophet hugged, kissed and wept over this worthless phallic stone.

Not surprisingly, a recent international survey, that the Times of India commented upon in a lead editorial, revealed that Saudi Arabia is home to the world’s largest number of phallus lovers. I mean homosexuals and that Saudi men watch gay porn the maximum when compared to men in other nations!!!

We understand, Asif. Some symbols are worth retaining though they’re worthless. At least the worthless Kaaba stone is real, visible and tangible but not Allah or the sexy houris or the jinns or the boiling water in hell or the river of milk in heaven or Jibril. What and where are they?

Some tribal pagan installed the stone in the Kaaba; we know not if Ibrahim existed or not as there’s no archaelogical/historical proof to support such an assumption. By the way, Ibrahim, is a corrupted form of the Sanskrit Brahma (the Conscient Cosmic Creative Expansiveness).

We, engineering students, didn’t know that Saudi Arabia was advanced in robotics or even in animal husbandry. We would like to find out more about their “world class” excellence in the high-end field of robotics, can you provide us with the technical details so that we can pronounce our verdict?..psstt Saudi scientists do not publish research papers in international journals (at least we’ve never seen their names or heard of a single Saudi scientist or engineer of average or high repute)….Does Saudi have advanced research facilities in nuclear science and engg, computer science, space science, robotics, cybernetics, genetics, quantum physics? Can you tell us, Asif? We know the answer but let’s see what you have to say. We and the faculty are waiting. If as you say the Saudis have made a world class robot (?), then next they ought to make a supercomputer or send a mission into space, what say?

Boy, today even Vietnam, North Korea and Portugal have made ordinary robots that are claimed to be world class.

PS: Asif, you don’t know how the houris look or know nothing about their vital statistics or material-force constitution or abode of dwelling, yet you believe they exist? You’re a genius, Asif.

We invite you to be part of the teams of the truly world class and talented teaching and research faculty at IIT or better still at MIT in the US (there too you’ll find scores of ex-IITians not Saudis). But, Asif, I guess, you’d prefer to do cutting edge research in a “world class” Saudi University? Does any such world class Saudi university exist?

Love, Joel

Assalam wa Alaikum…
Well Zack …first of all I should ask you a question…if this blog was for just guessing about the Muslim population of India…why did you allow comments which stray from the original topic?
And when certain section of the commentators violated their moral rights to attack other religions how can you expect the defenders of that religion to remain quiet?
So before asking me to move to another forum you try to control the contents of the submitted posts..and defer from displaying any stray topic…
Jazakallah Khair,
Asif alZarq

Joel….you and your friends try to burst the myths of so many religions.I believe you all are tech guys.So where do you all find time to study so many religions?It just goes on to show that you study religions in your leisure time..and that can be only superficial given that good religious commentators,from any religion,have spent entire lives in studying their religions.

No doubt a half hearted study can only result in erroneous judgements…as you prove repeatedly in this forum…

Zarq

I had answered your question of sexy houris…but that couldnt be posted because of an internal server error…Well I will repost it…

Joel and the likes….
Nice way to hide the falsity in your religion.But deal all..just use this material to propose the Hindu hardliners to scroll down from their positions in India…they were also supposedly following your Vedic philosophy….and tell thim not to arise the Satanic “chit shakti” in their blind and misled followers so that Muslims in different parts of India can live in peace and not face the pogroms as in Gujarat….

And if you correctly note the position of Jews throughout their history of existence then you will note that they are under a wrath of Allah.Allah says in the Quran that the Jews have failed in their promise of worship and as such they will never be allowed to live in the Promised Land in peace which Allah had bestowed upon them after saving them from Pharaoh.

Hence throughout history we see that Jews were repeatedly displaced from Jerusalem at the hands of the Byzantium,Roman empires,then by the Muslims and again by the crusaders of Europe and still today when they have established their Jewish state ..they have no peace.When they were slaugtered by Hitler,they rose to the heights in commerce in Europe.Again they are reaching similar heights in Israel but then again their curse will follow them wherever they go.
And dont think Israel is surviving on its own..the bunker bursting bombs and its missiles and the naval warship designs and its nuclear facilities are all a product of American support,help and nourishment.The day we have an anti Semitic governbment their in the USA..this so called Israel will fall as a pack of cards.Just claiming two victories in 1948 and 1967 they think that they have won over history.But 1973 war showed that their army can be defeated too…and so the Sinai Region went back to the Egyptians.And the present war shows that a disciplined contingent of 1200 Hezbollah fighters are able to hold off entire contingents of the Israeli army numbering no less than 30000.Come on guys wake up..with a nuclear Pakistan and an almost nuclear Iran and in the decades to come we will Inshallah have many nuclear armed Islamic countries to reckon with
…these will discourage the enemies of Islam from interfering with its matters.And conventional forces will no longer be able to save America’s puppet in Israel.Its days are numbered.And Hindus here in India dont rejoice..The rise of Muslims is a near future…dont forget that communities lagging behind in history have come out as superpowers repeatedly

*All those kicked out of Europe went on to establish the Americas which saved them from Hitler’s conquestial designs.

*The Jews were slaughtered ..the greatest slaughter to be faced by any community…6 million of them…heralded back as the same powerful traitor as had been Hitler

*Indians reeling under the most brutal and oppressive regime of 200 years of British rule stood back on its feet to become a nuclear power.

Hundreds of such examples can be recounted as such…you are fools to reckon only the present.The present backwardness of Muslims is just a prelude to the new revolution among them which will have an impact here in India and elsewhere in the world.And we have still not forgotten the 700 years rule of India by Islam…55 years under sqabbling corrupted polititians and a dead democracy you take pride in..these are not enough to disprove the fact that Hindus have a slave like mentality which had been exposed again and again in history and is being considerably exposed even as we talk about Vedas in this forum…just use your bullshit to convince the masses of your people to try living a dignified life under the present system of your society…..

You rejoice at the anarchy in Muslim countries due to internal revolutions…but you fail to understand that Muslims have an inherent nature of resisting corruption and not living with it as their faith Islam orders them to shun all types of corruption and fight against it.
But you and your coward lot wil not understand this…you are happy to live under corrupt politicians,exploitative police,gunda raaj and the religious leadership of those corrupt Swamis who end up in Jails!Your corruption evrywhere is so rampant that every film released in India has this as their central theme..and they are a huge success too. But I think Joel will protest saying that Hindus are “tolerant” so they prefer not to wake up to such grave self destructive situations…bloody cowardice is what you all have in your veins.You can just slay unarmed women and children as in Gujarat,that too with state political and police support,try doing it on your own guts if you have the courage.I presume that they too had learnt the Vedas and “enlightened” themselves on how to perform mass murders and how to rape women and throw children into fire.

Exactly……!!
This is the way that Muslims are held in India..terrorists.Even though they are at the receiving end of the Police and Administration.And if you dare to protest against these injustices then you are branded as A SIMI or ISI agent and put behind the bars.And the “proofs” all come out in the court against them and they are thrown into jails.

Friends….Now you all must have understood that Joel is a part of a much bigger conspiracy against Indian Muslims by the parent organization Sangh Parivaar.No doubt he speaks in RSS terms and propunds the Shiv Sena ideology that Muslims should be all thrown into the Arabian Sea.He indirectly hints at it by asking me to shift to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.But know it Joel…we Muslims have a birth right to this country..our forefathers have given their blood for its independence and our Kings have united it…so your nationalism comes much much later than ours.

Asif Zarq

Well what is it that keeps you asking about the vital statistics of the houris?Islam is not a religion of sexual perverts nor is it of any likes of Kama sutra…Doesnt Sexy Lakshnmi or sexy Parvati gratifies your lust?

LAST BUT NOT THE LEAST…

Again and again the likes of Joel try to equate technical progress with social progress…they see to assume a linear relationship between the two factors.Whereas technical progress is to a large extent responsible for social progress,however its not the be end and be all.You might have the technology to produce tonnes of clothing material within minutes yet end up wandering naked on the streets.We as MBA’s have been always dealing with the best distribution of resources..and I as a manager encounter many of such tech guys who are always coming up with erroneous marketing and production decisions.No doubt you are same as them.

And with all their rocket science and their MITs they havent been able to stall the likes of Katrinas.I doubt if the next Katrina strikes the Massachusettes…turning its scientists into cannibals as the last Katrina did.
The USA also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.So if your IIT friends are right now in the USA ask them to be careful about their wives and sisters who might get raped any moment….
So my dear get to your senses….
And a last word for Zack too…Zack..your name is very similar to mine..which is Zarq..and I believe that we are brothers in Islam..I dont know whether you believe the same or not…Yet from this point of view I ask you not to propagate and publish any blasphemous posts against Islam…..since it is a sin to allow such blasphemy to be propagated within your means.The hadith of our Beloved Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihe wa sallam) says that you should try to stop a sin and an unjust oppressive action by any of the three means according to your means….i)By hand…which means forcefully..ii)By mouth…That is by vocally advocating against it…and even if this is not possible due to fear of repercussions then take the third option iii)Feel bad at heart about it and resolve never to indulge in that kind of act..
Clearly Zack you have the means to stop it by hand which is prohibiting the publication of such inflamatory,bigoted and racial posts.So do it.Else you stand in clear violation of the above mentioned Hadith and dont try to take the false pretext of secularism..its already proved in the current world situation that secularism doesnt exist..
Bye
Asif alZarq

Any further discussion with Mr. Asif Zarq is not required any more.

These are the extremist elements of ISLAAM who want to convert the whole world to their narrow minded and skewed beliefs.

He has no idea about the BHRAMA SUTRA, or the KAMA Sutra or what they mean.His comments about MOTHER GODDESS Laxmi, Parvati, and KALI, and Hanumanji are blasphemy at its worst.

Dear Asif, As you sow so shall you reap!!!

All he has is a distorted vision of the world and how they will be “peaceful” by cutting people’s throats and blowing themseves up in the name of ALLAH.

His belief that there is no secularity in the world is complete and utter nonsense. His indoctrination of HATE has reached beyond reasonable limits and decent discussion.

I will pray for his enlightenment.

AND Mr. Zack, I do not belong to any group, I am just a GOD LOVING Human being and BHRAMA, VISHNU, SHIVA, JESUS CHRIST, ALLAH, And every other GOD and person or life, animate and inanimate is a manifestation of the SUPREME UNIVARSAL DIVINE ENERGY.

There is nothing more to say…….or write….

Assalam wa Alaikum

Hi,all of you.

Hey friends—–its indeed sorrowful to see these events in this forum develop as they have developed.I had just wanted some information on the Muslim population of India…yet i have got “much more” than I had wanted for.

Well–Premajit——the comments of Asif may have been blasphemous but if you had really not been the part of any group then you would have criticized Joel as well—-for writing equally blasphemous comments on Islam and its beliefs.
Yet you have chosen to write against Asif only——Does that not make you part of Joel’s group?

And previously in other posts you have also copied down all of Joel’s effort of showing Islam and Quran in a poor light,in your comments.

Infact just in his concluding post Joel had admitted that you do not form part of his clones(atleast in thinking,if not in real) and here you also say the same thing—–Is it meant in some way to reinforce what Joel says?

STOP LYING PREMAJIT!!!you are just another fictitious clone of Joel—Now accept that and make your disgraceful exit from this forum.

And well—-about the alleged blasphemy——We all know that the mere mention of KamaSutra invokes an urge down the guts in the ordinary Indian—–and the films on them are all XXX-rated.
Please tell these producers in the Bollywood what is the “real” message in KamaSutra so that they can depict it rightly in their films and we,ordinary Indians can have the “correct” information propagated to us.

And about Goddess Lakhsmi and Parvati..well I must admit whenever I have glimpsed of any temple having these deities …they were made to wear certain clothes that do reveal their deep navels and their 36-24-36 statistics…

But dont worry,I wont appeal for these deities to be covered in Burkha which Asif would have surely called for.I would simply state that “THOSE WHO LIVE IN HOUSES MADE OF GLASS SHOULD NOT THROW STONES AT OTHERS”.

Well—–Asif—bravo brother,keep it up!You have indeed defended Islam in a manner which most Muslim commentators have failed in this forum(including me).You have,no doubt,come up with fitting replies and frustrated the Enemies of Islam and exploded the hollows of the allegations against Islam!You have indeed risen up to the “crises” when Yashendra challenged the Muslims to come up with fitting replies…

Thanks for doing what I would have wanted to do—but failed to do,like most other Muslims.Alas!

Keep it going Asif-We need more people like you who are willing to spend precious time just for the sake of defending the honour of Islam instead of wasting it elsewhere and sitting by silently and watch Islam bashing.

TO OTHERS MUSLIMS:FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF ASIF.PUT AN END TO THE DAYS WHEN ENEMIES OF ISLAM WOULD SAY ANYTHING THEY WANTED IN FORUMS AND ESCAPE WITHOUT GETTING CONFRONTED LOGICALLY AND EFFECTIVELY.YOU ARE AN EYE-OPENER ASIF……

Allah Hafiz,
Arsalan

And from this point on—-all my posts will also be in your name Asif Zarq.You have become an icon here as the single person to defend against a host of enemies to Islam.And atleast a Hero to me—-Bye

Arsalan

The question is:

India, since the past 2 decades has changed immensely. In view of the fast changing demographic, social, cultural and religious patterns in India together with an upswing in our economic, scientific and military might, how should we view the issue of reservation of seats in professional institutions? With a rising Muslim, Dalit and Christian population, should India bow to obscurantist and vested interests and permit its implementation? What happens to merit? Next, will there be a demand for separate electoral constituencies (on the basis of religious representation as a marked demographic shift in favour of the minorities takes place over, say, the next 30 years)?

Regards,

Joel

Brother Arsalan….

I thank you for your encouragement..But please dont post in my name…since it may arise confusion…As it is my objectives are well-satisfied in this forum and I may never return.

The reason being there are countless other forums where people freely enjoy saying whatever they like about Islam..and in my limited capacity I will counter them…

But there are lot of lessons to be learnt for the Muslims from this small discussion and debate that concluded more or less in these few days..

We should go back to the Hadith of the Beloved Prophet(saws)…”Seek for Science,Even in China”
And Inshallah world class facilities,which the agents of Kufr boast of,will be again ours as it had been in the past.And the only difference between them and us will be that the value derived from these technologies will be evenly distributed among all…not limited to a particular elite section…as it is now.

Someone had rightly pointed out that if you want to know your weaknesses…ask your opponent…So also Joel and his folk have at least done some good(his intentions are different though)in pointing out where we have the mistakes to deal with…Hope,as Arsalan points out,we Muslims learn the lesson fast…

And Premajit…even I dont have to say anything more to lunatics like you..throughout the discussions you have stuck to your demand that the existence of Allah must be proved as also Jibrael….and NOW I DEMAND YOU TO PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF KALI,PARVATI AND LAKSHMI…of course they exist..but as sex dolls for pervert pundits in their dens of lust known as temples.

Of a surety you cannot prove their existence as Goddess and that itself is a testimony to your hollow comments….
It is a known fact that the biggest Religion-endorsed prostitution centre is at Kashi.It was exposed to all the Indian public in the film “Water” which was subsequently banned to conceal the truth about what happens in the name of religion to the young widowed girls in Hinduism.But Joel and Company Limited(indeed their days are limited)you may atleast heave a sigh of relief that atleast Sati has been banned.Else your job of projecting falsehood as religion would have increased manifold.Islam doesnt degrade it women and it is clearly proved when compared to the sorrow state of affairs in other religions when women are concerned.

P.S:Joel I doubt your information that Saudi Arabia is home to the largest number of homosexuals.Is this really the report in the Times of India or conjured up in your mind??In Saudi Arabia being a gay is a crime and carries capital punishment.So I doubt if the gays of Saudi Arabia would ever acknowledge that they are so…Any survey on this matter is impossible(and dont talk about the bogus net surveys which anyone can influence.e.g.There is a site www.giyus.org which clearly states that its objective is to make opinion polls and survey results cater to the Jewish thinking…such bogus voting is abundant.).So in the absence of any concrete survey how could Times of India declare suh results…it must be the handi work of an equally bigoted RSS cadre as you,who have led to such false reports.And well back home…Gays have come to hold a lot more “clout” in India…We had a gay procession three months back here in Kolkata..it was a big procession and I was awe stuck that Indians could have degraded themselves to such low levels….

Bye all,
Muhammad Asif al Zarq

Well….in my view…there should be no reservations in the name of religion and caste..

But anyway thats not the issue with Muslims and Christians at the present…its the issue with the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes..it has been 55 years that under merited students have made it to the IITs and almost every other institutions having the hallmark of the Indian Government.This doctrine of reservation seems to me to be parasitic.There is a certain myth among Muslims that you cannot get good jobs and into good tech colleges or management colleges in India since most of these are run by Hindu majority administration.But I as a Muslim and with such fundamentalistic attitude really did not face any great problem from any quarter whatsoever….I remember being at loggerheads with my Finance teacher at my MBA college but then it did not alter my practical results..nor did he give a real try to “bog me down”.Of course racialism do exist against Muslims but then go back to the Quranic verse where Allah says

“Ask me through patience and Namaz(prayers)”

Remember…its Allah who will give us …not any administrative guy…and Allah is not biased against Muslims…if you are not getting the fruits its just that you did not plant the right seed..Work hard and hard and ask only from Allah..and then see if He gives you or not.

And reservations may temporarily better your situation but in the long run it will be a hindrance to the flowering of merit.And it will also lead to the development of parasites.

The punchline is that stop begging and start claiming on the basis of merit

“Khud hi ko kar buland itna…ki har takdir se pehle…Khuda khud poochhe bande se..Bata teri raza hai kya”

Asif Zarq

Asif has gone berserk going by his frenzied replies liberally peppered with the naive quotations taken from Quran. As if to say that a certain thing is true just because a book says so! Can what the book preaches be true in the total absence of sound reasons and solid evidence? On the other hand, it can easily be shown that book knowledge is false.

The existence of Laxmi, Parvati, Shiva cannot be proved just as the existence of Allah, Jibril, Adam, Ibrahim, Moosa, hell, heaven and houris can not be proved ! Both sets of beliefs are fiction.

It makes me laugh to see people fighting over fiction and myths.

Asif and Premajit don’t fight over myths. Both of you show us the proofs first, give us rational answers about Allah, Parvati, houris, physical heavens, and the rest. As you will never be able to prove the existence of your respective gods, why fight?

Be loving, rational, compassionate, helpful humanbeings. Leave all the fiction of Allah, Shiva and houris or rivers of milk to ignorant, blind believers.

Your friend,

Yashendra.

ASIF, ur ignorance is showing once again.

When it was discovered that Saudi Arabia is home to the largest number of homosexuals, the conclusion wasn’t made by the questionable method of blind guessing or by questioning the Saudi men about their sex preferences.

Powerful search engines accurately tracked the surfing habits of the Saudis and by using this reliable technique, it came to light that net users from Saudi Arabia kept visiting gay porn sites the most in comparison to net users from other nations.

Not surprising when the stone phallus in the Kaaba is their religious mascot to which their prophet and the believers turn to, kiss, embrace and shed tears over!

With lots of love,

Yashendra, Sanjoy and the other geeks at India’s premier technology institute.

Assalam wa Alaikum..

Ok..brother Asif…no problem..I wont post in your name…
But its no use talking to “blind,deaf and dumb” geeks as already mentioned in the Quran.

Allah Hafiz

Arsalan wrote: “But its no use talking to “blind,deaf and dumb” geeks as already mentioned in the Quran.”

Yes, naturally, Arsalan, it’s no use talking to us as we’re not at all convinced by your illogical religious nonsense.

We’ve yet to get rational answers and solid proofs from the Quran and from you. Till now, we’ve only got myths, superstitions and irrational tall talk from both the Quran and you. So, what’s the use of talking with the likes of you?

As I said in a previous post, that it amuses us to see Asif, Arsalan and Premajit slugging it out over myths. Listen you guys, neither can Asif nor can Premajit prove any of their blind beliefs. So, why argue over Allah, Jibril, Parvati, Shiva, the houris, physical hell with bushfires and so on when you can never hope to rationally explain or provide evidence about these myths? Why don’t you leave the myths of Allah, Jibril and Parvati to fools instead of ranting on like lunatics?

LOTS Of LOVE,

Yash.

I am the real Yashendra. I was surprised to see so many posts here in my name. Although I basically agree with what is written there, but its NOT ME who has posted there. I think it is Joel Pastakia ( this bugger’s real name is Arup Isaacs. I know him personally). Though I do not disagree with whatsoever he has written, but I strongly condemn this identity-theft. He cud hv used any other name. I request the moderator to take appropriate action. My claims are open to any scruitny. Thanks- Yashendra

Real Yashendra again. The more I read the posts the more shock I get, as my name is being used since more than an year !! I request Mr. Arup Isaacs ( alias Joel Pastakia) to refrain from this cyber-crime. I have clinching evidence that he has done this. And my identity can be proved by my IP address which is owned by me. I use my personal computer….. Mr. Isaacs is known to me personally and I have his e-mails to me (also using the alias Joel Pastakia identity). He can keep posting whatever he wants, no problem. But I again make a clear statement that I have seen this website 1st time today only and I have never posted anything before. I can provide my identity to anyone who wants. Thanks again- Yashendra Prasad(Real)

Real(?) Yashendra,

You may be known to Joel as he may have had dealings with you in the past. Are you a RSS clone? You agree with what Joel, Sanjoy, Prabha and me have said on this forum to which the ISI agents or SIMI chaps have no answer.

Neither can they provethat what the Quran says is true nor can they give convincing answers to any of the questions. On the contrary, the claims of the Quran can be shown false or copied from other sources. The present version of the Quran is evidently a distortion of the original divine book in view of the mass illogic in it. Who’s Mr Arup? Your finance agent or bed partner?

If you agree with what we’ve being saying, why butt in? Support the mission against anti-truth agents. We can prove our identity; we are serious science chaps with a nationalistic cause in our hearts.

Butt out from here and get on with your silly poojas, fending for your ignorant family or speaking lies. If you have not the intelligence, stamina, honesty and courage to effectively tackle these anti-national, anti-truth forces, stay away and get on with your spineless lifestyle.

Love, Yashendra

Remarks To Fanatics Of All Hues:

Dear Fanatic,

Of course, every bigot or fanatic believes that whatever is his has, without rational answers or the least proof, to simply be the best or the only truth.

An extremist Hindu considers everything non-Hindu perverted, every non-Hindu is to him a “mlechha” (barbarian), but, in sharp contrast to his sublime Vedas (to which every other sacred book, science and philosophy is indebted) and heroic ancestors, he has, over generations, become so gross in nerve and mind that the Hindus rank among the most foolish, servile and cowardly community on earth.

A fanatical Jew believes Moses was the last Prophet and that every other creed is a falsehood, when, on the contrary, Moses, going by the definition of Prophethood (“The Supreme manifestation of the Absolute Consciousness upon the earth-plane”) was just a minor mystic who’s been overly praised for ordinary supra physical and physical achievements. The bigoted Jew knows nothing of his ancestral homeland though certain historical records indicate that the Jews were originally from Kashmir. Besides, there exists not an iota of concrete archaeological, numismatic, epigraphic or genetic proof to corroborate the historicity of his forefathers like Abraham, Noah, Job, Moses, Daniel and Enoch among other mythical personages. Did they exist?

A rabid Christian considers all other religions and their books “fairy tales” fit for heathens and is immune to every attempt at correction and is convinced that Christ was the last Prophet. But, is there any hard proof to corroborate the historicity of Jesus, Joseph, Mary, Matthew, John, Peter, Paul and others? No.The ignorant Christian symbolically consumes the “flesh” and “blood” (the transubstantiation or holy communion rite) of his crucified Christ thinking that by doing so he shall be blessed but to others it appears a gross cannibalistic ritual. He has failed to comprehend the deep metaphysical meaning of the holy communion of bread and wine. He shockingly glorifies the crucifixion and venerates the murder weapon - the cross- thinking that the death of his prophet is something to be admired or has a great spiritual significance and that the biblical fairy tales of the resurrection and of his god flying up to some mythical heaven in the clouds are simply true and wonderful. He naively believes that the crucifixion of Christ has saved the whole world from sin, when, on the contrary, sin has only multiplied down the ages. His Bible, too, has been manipulated on several occasions by the Vatican Councils and there exists not a single mention in the present version of even the birthday of Christ that is ignorantly assumed to be Dec 25. He knows nothing about the substratal nature of heavens, hells, souls, angels and other supra physical entities. And, what is the mechanism underlying Virgin Birth/Immaculate Conception? All these are just words to him.Further, the rabid Christian has no clue as to the details of the crucifixion - whether the Prophet Christ actually died on the cross or not, when ample literary proofs to the contrary exist.

A proselytizing Buddhist claims that the Prophet Buddha was the only Prophet on earth or at most the others before The Tathagatha, i.e. Buddha, were “minor” Advents and there existed no other Prophet after Buddha, which, then, obviously, excludes the post Buddha prophets Christ and the Muhammad from a fanatical Buddhist’s list.

A Jain will announce, as if it’s a settled fact, that the saint Mahavir was a Prophet and that the Jain scriptures contain the last word on things transcendental and terrestrial – Buddha and Mahavir were contemporaries, but as there cannot exist more than one prophet at any given time, who’s the Prophet between the two? Buddha? Or Mahavir? So, the fight continues over Prophethood of whether Buddha or Mahavir was the last Prophet.

Like fanatics of other faiths, a bigoted Muslim, too, will also boldly declare, on the basis of a mere book verse or two, that his own Prophet (Muhammed) was the last and his faith the grandest despite the fact that the “simple” moral, material, scientific and spiritual tenets of his faith are to be found in books older than his (and, ironically, as quoted from the Hadiths and written by Dr Rafique Zarkaria and explicitly stated by the poet Allama Iqbal, the Prophet Muhammad not only lauded the rich spiritual culture of India but also readily acknowledged that He borrowed freely from the religion of Sur-e-Hind or India to formulate a faith for the savage Arabs).

Even the term used to denote God in the Quran, “Allah”, is a Vedic-Sanskrit word. Besides, the Quranic terms Eid, Makkah, Madina, Sangmey Aswad, Mam, Mim, Ra, Kaaba, Hajj, etc, are all direct lift offs from Vedic Sanskrit and so are the Hajj rituals of donning seamless clothes, circumambulation of an aniconic, black stone (Shiv Linga), significance attached to water as Zam Zam, tonsuring the head or clipping the hair, etc.

Similarly, the Prophet Christ, who preceded Rasul, too, modified the original Sanskrit “Allah” to “Allaha” in Aramaic and to El/Eloi in Hebrew as done earlier by the old Jews.

So, everything, even the “ultimate” – the word employed by the Semites for “God” (El/Eloi/Allaha/Allah) - can be traced to Vedic-Sanskrit!

Even the Persian “Khuda” , German “Got” and English “God” can etymoligically be traced to the Sanskrit roots “hu” and “gota” respectively which stand for the Almighty. What an irony!

Further, though not one of the bigoted Muslim’s book assertions can be rationally proved, he still remains defiant; he has neither any concrete proof nor a single “lower” or “higher” logical answer to the simplest of questions concerning the origin, function and teleology of the multi-planar cosmos among other fundamental queries, and though he stands atop his Kaaba to show that he holds no regard for the enclosed “black pillar”, yet he “piously” circumambulates it “7 times”, like a Hindu parikrama, and even kisses it and prostrates before it. The Prophet Muhammed is said to have hugged, kissed and wept over the phallic, black stone!

Further, is ”monotheism”/ “tauheed” the highest truth? No. It can not be considered the highest truth or even a truth as it preaches extra-cosmic dualism - that Cause is eternally separate from the Effect -when the truth of existence on all levels and with respect to the whole is Monistic, Unitary.

Though God is one, he is not of “extra-cosmic” origin as this would then contradict the universal laws of conservation, causality and the essential condition of an underlying unity from which everything proceeds. God or the Absolute Consciousness is of supra-cosmic origin, the source of the graded cosmos, though, in Its actual nature, It exceeds Its own graded cosmic manifestation and is hence not bound by the laws of causation, but, is rather, their source/the underlying mechanism of everything.

The rabid Parsi thinks his books the “only revealed truths” and all others spurious or, at most, pale imitations, and is unwilling to change his beliefs under any circumstances and even refuses to admit others entry into his fire temple thinking their presence will pollute his faith and shrine. The rampant in-breeding practiced by this miniscule community has damaged it genetically beyond repair.

A radical Sikh takes to terrorism to carve out an independent State to prove his faith is the greatest and something original, when, on the contrary, his Adi Granth, is full of references to the Prophets Ram and Krishna and contains explicit allusions to the Vedic conscient cosmic forces like Indra, Surya, Agni and others – these graded conscient cosmic entities are the operational agents of the graduated cosmos that, like the multi-planar cosmos, are the manifestations of a “supra-cosmic” conscient Godhead.

The rabid Sikh writes any number of books/essays to prove his religious superiority, thinks that by growing a long beard and due to the 5 articles of faith he wears on his person (Kada, kangan, kesh, etc), he’s very pious and unique, better than the rest.

The dogmatic scientist of the old classical school will not concede that “though Consciousness inheres in matter” and though “Consciousness is a mysterious non-computational quantity”, there exists supra-physical states of conscient cosmic existence and that none of the evidences indicate that Consciousness is a physical force respectively. His highest Unity, shockingly, ends and begins with “insentient” matter. What a serious paradox!

I can go on.

I laugh at all these mythical ideas/interpretations whether got from their forefathers or from books of the unaltered or altered kind. All these sources and beliefs can not demonstrate or prove even an atom of the truth and will remain forever confined to the realm of stories, though a fanatic will keep crying himself hoarse about his respective faith being the Truest and all the rest inferior or rubbish, without the least proof, but, conveniently, forgets that fanatics of those faiths that he thinks inferior or rubbish, too, have the same opinion about his “so-called superior faith”.

The Real Truth and Nature care not one bit for all these stories, unsubstantiated beliefs. So, there’s really no sense in debating the point.

Believe what you will. I have no complaint at all.

But, as conscientious human beings, do not create a Talibanic-kind of nuisance in society by expecting all to swallow such irrational “pet theories” or “baseless beliefs”.

Do not misunderstand me.

I have no quarrel with anyone who wishes to pursue his “beliefs”, whatever they may be, even the most bizarre, provided it’s done without imposition on others and in a peaceful manner.

Perhaps, a Great Global Change, due to certain indications that are soon to become manifest in the outer world, is just around the corner, let’s wait to see what really happens.…..

Maybe, very soon the “gold will be separated from the dross”, the “Real” Truth will be made known…in the world.

Best Regards,

Joel P

YOU EFFORT TO MALIGN MUSLIMS STANDS EXPOSED:
SAUDIS HAVE THE GREATEST NUMBER OF HOMOSEXUALS IN THE WORLD

Hello friends,
Well as of before I will support whatever I state with hard facts from the most reliable sources in the world….

The population of the United States of America is 298,213,000 according to UN estimates(2005).The Kinsey Reports of 1948 found that 37% of males had some sexual experience with other men, and that 4% had always been exclusively homosexual. Among women, Kinsey found between 2% and 6% had “more or less exclusively” homosexual experience.
In the United States during the 2004 elections, exit polls indicated 4% of all voters self-identified as gay or lesbian. However, due to societal pressures, many who are homosexual may not be willing to identify as such, as evident in the recent forced “outings” of New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevy and Spokane, Washington, Mayor Jim West.

Now we may thus conclude that the number of proven self declared homosexuals in the USA is 11928520(assuming the official 4%,whereas its clear that this percentage is more something hovering near about 8 percent,given that Gay and lesbian organizations there claim about 12% of the population being homosexual)…Friends remember that figure since it would help you compare the facts that follow.

Now come to Saudi Arabia……Its population according to UN estimate 2005 is 24573000.Now compare 11928520 with 24573000,the former comes to about 48.57% of the latter.Translated into simple language,this would mean that if the Saudis have to have a greater number of homosexuals than the number of homosexuals in America,then about 50% of its population should be homosexuals……is that what the survey of the Times of India wanted to say??

No country,I repeat,no country in the whole world has half its population as homosexuals….and I think Joel will have to grudgingly accept this fact.

Interestingly,this 4% theory is believed only by a few in the US itself….the actual percentage that most are certain of is nearing 8% of the total US adult population.And if this is true then the Times of India survey will indicate that the whole population of Saudi Arabia is homosexual!!!..And if such is the case then why do we have capital punishment for homosexuality in a country where everyone is supposed to be homosexual??

Its for the reader to judge that all the surveys that are conducted by the “powerful search engines” do not really confirm the truth at the best………. and paint a horribly disguised and distorted picture at the worst.

No doubt Joel,you are a victim of your senseless over reliance upon malicious surveys and “powerful search engines”…
Lasy but not the least,most porn sites are not exclusive to homosexuals…they contain hetero sexual fantasies too..in a much greater proportion…so its really not only difficult but also impossible for any search engine to label an user of such a porn site as whether he is interested in viewing homosexual or heterosexual content.

Joel….or Arup..whoever you are…there are two advices for you…the first…end your propagation of bad and false ideas…..second…try using your IIT brain in a more sensible manner,you have been chosen by India’s premier institute to visualize everything in a scientific way..not to blindly rely upon anything that comes along.Before laughing at other’s “blind beliefs” and trying to “explode” them..try doing a self analysis….we in managerial cirlcles often discuss this and help the techies under us with their self analyses.Remember that science and society are for each other..one’s development with the other lagging behind will do no good…….

Thanks,
Asif alZarq

Joel,
Now give us the info about how the nuts of every faith are trying to multiply, increase their population numbers so that they can rule the world with one set of fiction…until another set of myths takes over for some time. None has succeeded till now in ruling the world with all people following one religion and never will it happen. Whether Muslims in India are 13% or 18% is anyone’s guesswork, I have my own guesses. I say it is somewhere near 16%; but what does that prove about the superiroity of Islam? Nothing does it prove. If muslims keep having 12 kids per family also it can not prove a single belief, in fact it will be a drain on economy and infrastructure and will see a big lowering of standards. No Muslim nation on earth has succeeded in becoming an advanced nation in even one positive field though they rank first in superstitions, cruelty and fanaticism. What do population figures count for when nothing healthy comes out of a single community multiplying like flies; if population of Muslims is going up, so is the number of AIDS cases, lunatics, prostitutes, robbers, failures, poor and drunkards. Everywhere one is seeing that the bad things are rapidly increasing in numbers - like the Muslim population.

Sanjoy Parkar

Hello Mr. Arup Isaacs ( alias Joel Pastakia )!

The simple question is why have u committed this cyber-crime by stealing my name ? Do u know that when u use internet, the IP address gets noted down and becomes your digital signature ?

I have my legal IP address in my name. If u still persist in this audacity, I will have no option but to inform the Cyber crime cell of the Mumbai Police. They will take no time in reaching Rajdoot Society.

I hope you understand simple words. And pls do not take it lightly. Do not forget that the Mumbai police has all your sms-s of last year with them.

You go on posting whatever u want in this forum, or elsewhere, thats not my business. But, henceforth, do not use my name.

Dear All,

Mr. Arup Isaacs alias Joel Pastakia alias whatever….. can be anything. But do not think that he is from IIT or any technical institute. He only crosses IIT-Powai’s gate by bus and might have visited its canteen !

He lacks spine and avoids using his real name out of fear. I dont know why he is stealing my identity. Wonder why he has inferiority complex about himself and his own identity !! Well, i feel flattered that he feels good by using my name, but I have to stop it as I dont allow this. I hope he stops or the Mumbai Police will step in.

HELLO FRIENDS……

WHAT A BIG BLUFF HAS BEEN CALLED OFF…!!!
THE PERSON WHO IS TRYING TO EXPLODE THE MYTHS OF ALL THE RELIGIONS IS HIMSELF A BIG BLUFF!HE ASSUMES THAT HE HAS DONE SCHOLARLY RESEARCH ON NOT JUST ONE BUT ALL THE RELIGIONS!!

THANK YOU “REAL” YASHENDRA…AT LEAST WE HAVE THE TRUTH ABOUT THIS IMPOSTER….

REGARDS,
ASIF ALZARQ

Hi Friends,

You are all so worried about Joel stealing Yashendra’s identity……..If he has its very bad but Check this out!!!!

This takes a little time but gets one thinking.

Real History of “Taj Mahal”

“The Moghul Emperor Shah Jahan in the memory of his life Mumtaz Mahal
built the Taj Mahal. It was built in 22 years (1631 to 1653) by 20,000
artisans brought to India from all over the world! . Many people
believe
Ustad Isa of Iran designed it.” This is what your guide probably told
you if you ever visited the Taj Mahal. This is the same story I read
in my history book as a student.
NOW READ THIS…….

No one has ever challenged it except Prof. P. N. Oak, who
believes the whole world has been duped. In his book Taj Mahal: The
True Story, Oak says the Taj Mahal is not Queen Mumtaz’s tomb but an
ancient Hindu temple palace of Lord Shiva (then known as Tejo
Mahalaya). In the course of his research Oak discovered that the Shiva
temple palace was usurped by Shah Jahan from then Maharaja of Jaipur,
Jai Singh. In his own court chronicle, Badshahnama,Shah Jahan admits
that an exceptionally beautiful grand mansion in Agra was taken from
Jai SIngh for Mumtaz’s burial. The ex-Maharaja of Jaipur still
retains in his secret collection two orders from Shah Jahan for
surrendering the Taj building. Using captured temples and mansions, as
a burial place ! for dead courtiers and royalty was a common practice
among Muslim rulers. For example, Humayun,Akbar, Etmud-ud-Daula and
Safdarjung are all buried in such mansions. Oak’s inquiries began with
the name of Taj Mahal.He says the term “Mahal” has never been used for
a building in any Muslim countries from Afghanisthan to Algeria. “The
unusual explanation that the term Taj Mahal derives from Mumtaz Mahal
was illogical in atleast two respects. Firstly, her name was never
Mumtaz Mahal but Mumtaz-ul-Zamani,” he writes.

Secondly, one cannot omit the first three letters ‘Mum’ from a woman’s
name to derive the remainder as the name for the building.”Taj Mahal,
he claims, is a corrupt version of Tejo Mahalaya, or Lord Shiva’s
Palace.
Oak also says the love story of Mumtaz and Shah Jahan is a fairy tale
created by court sycophants, blundering historians and sloppy
archaeologists. Not a single royal chronicle of Shah Jahan’s time
corroborates the love story.Furthermore, Oak cites several documents
suggesting the Taj Mahal predates Shah Jahan’s era, and was a temple
dedicated to Shiva, worshipped by Rajputs of Agra city. For example,
Prof. Marvin Miller of New York took a few samples from the riverside
doorway of the Taj. Carbon dating tests revealed that the door was 300
years older than Shah Jahan. European traveler Johan Albert
Mandelslo,who visited Agra in 1638 (only seven
years after Mumtaz’s death), describes the life of the city in his
memoirs. But he makes no reference to the Taj Mahal being built.
The writings of Peter Mundy, an English visitor to Agra within a year
of Mumtaz’s death, also suggest the Taj was a noteworthy building well
before Shah Jahan’s time.

Prof. Oak points out a number of design and architectural
inconsistencies that support the belief of the Taj Mahal being a
typical Hindu temple rather than a mausoleum.Many rooms in the Taj
Mahal have remained sealed since Shah Jahan’s time and are still
inaccessible to the public. Oak asserts they contain a headless statue
of Lord Shiva and other objects commonly used for worship rituals in
Hindu temples.

Fearing political backlash, Indira Gandhi’s government tried to have
Prof.Oak’s book withdrawn from the bookstores, and threatened the
Indian publisher of the first edition dire consequences. There is
only one way to discredit or validate Oak’s research.

The current government should open the sealed rooms of the Taj Mahal
under U.N. supervision, and let international experts investigate.

Do circulate this to all you know and let them know about this
reality…..

please check these sites ……..it adds as a visual proof

Do feel free to circulate it………

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm
and

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/true_story_of_the_taj_mahal.htm

Yes, Real Yashendra:

Let’s find out who the REAL Yashendra is? Now, am I Joel, Yashendra or Arup? You claim to know, right? Do you know? You cannot call me by 3 names.

Are you a professional slanderer or thief one does not know. Perhaps you are. Let’s see how you challenge the likes of these bigots on this forum?

If you are Rai Yashendra who come as part of the ZEE TV team to Tech Fest at IIT then I remember you well as you’d, evidently, not hailing from a science background, had made a fool of ur self during the question answer session on the paranormal - Deepak Rao’s show. And you wanted me to help as consultant/researcher? I am laughing.

The go between had later informed me about your criminal exploits: the way u cheated ZEE TV of lakhs of rupees and then was kicked out of the TV network, then I was also told about how u being a part of Uma Bharti’s Saffron Gang picked up info on the sinister deeds of non-Hindus (Muslims) to use against them at a later stage. By passing on the info to the VHP goons or what? How much money have u earned for it?

I was also informed that u have this habit of embezzling accounts including that of religious ashrams and of borrowing money from unsuspecting people and then disappearing? Is this right? How much money have u made from blackmailing and pilfering from others?

I was stunned to hear this about u and thus broke all contacts with ur team and with you after some heated exchanges through electronic media and personally.

If u have my (Joel Pastakia’s) sms messages during those festival days, I’d like u to reproduce it here on this forum to see what it says. I am really gonna enjoy this encounter. Let the truth come out. I also want all to know about ur criminal deeds.

At present, what violent act or defamation campaign against the Non-Hindus or financial embezzlement are u plannning? Who have u cheated recently?

Better still why don’t u meet me at Powai or at ur personal flat - 6th floor, Gokul View (Kandivili - Thakur Complex) if I remember ur address right?

When will u criminal minded Biharis improve?

Let’s meet and find out personally what’s true.

What say Mr Chor?

Regards,

Joel P

Real Yashendra, being an alleged thief apart, has been over the years actively collaborating with bigoted Hindu organisations over the years.

All know the agenda of such saffron organistaions.

During our talks, Yashendra had also claimed that he posseses a portrait of Prophet Muhammad which he keeps at home.

We were surprised to hear this piece as it’s common knowledge that there exists no drawing or picture of Muhammad and anyway such an act is strictly forbidden in Islam.

But, here we have Rai Yashendra emphatically telling friends and others in private that he is in possession of Prophet Muhammad’s portrait/facial drawing. He personally said, if I remember to Joel, that the face, that he claims is Muhammad’s, is fully scarred and that a original sketch in coal exists in a cave in Makka.

We were shocked by Real Yashendra’s blasphemous disclosures. It’s a criminal offence and an act of sacrilege!

All know what happended recently the world over due to the caricature of the Prophet Muhammad published in Denmark. In India too several unpleasant incidents have occured or have just been averted due to people wanting to publish Prophet Muhammad’s photo.

Though we keep questioning Muslims on this forum, a thought as blasphemous as this - of possessing the prophet of Islam’s facial sketch and claiming it to others- does not cross our mind nor do we have any intention of thinking in this way.

We just wanted all to know the truth about Rai Yashendra’s (Prasad) true nature, deeds and affiliations.

Love,

Sanjoy, Joel, Prabha and other witnesses.

Dear Premajit,

The Taj Mahal is another disputed monument with both the Hindus and Muslims claiming it as their own. Though several architectural features of the Taj are typically Hindu and as the qibla or axis of the northward facing mosque in it are wrong,it casts doubts on the claims of the Mughals, yet the Archaeological Survey of India is silent on the issue for obvious reasons.

Here, at IIT Powai, a professor had, alongwith other scientists, carbon tested the wood used in doorways of the Taj but surprisngly the age of the wood was found to be just a few hundred years old (though Hindutavadis claim that the Shiva temple-palace - Tejo-Mahalaya) was in existence for much longer. Perhaps, the doors were changed during the makeover of the Shiva temple during the reign of Shahjahan which explains the discrepancy. We’ll only know the truth if the ASI opens its files and the secret chambers with the alleged destroyed Hindu idols.

Love,

Joel Pastakia.

Real Yashendra Prasad,

We poor people who’re not studying science at IIT according to you have just one science query (and a serious warning at the end) for you. Perhaps, you’re a genius in science - Answer this:

Q):If Baryonic matter makes up just 4% of the mass in the universe, then the rest(96%) is said to be composed of Cold Matter, Dark Energy. Till now nerds at Nasa, Harvard, TIFR, our own IIT or at Harvell have no answer to these odd phenomena. Cold Matter, Dark Energy show properties just the
opposite of Baryonic Matter, yet they paradoxically have a physical presence and measureable effect on Baryonic matter. How come? What role does gravitation play in this, if at all? Can Cold Matter, Dark Energy really affect gravitation? How can gravitation be said to be an independent force when none has any expalantions to its mysterious nature and functioning? Richard Feynman called gravity a pseudo-force? Is he right?

Real Yashendra (Prasad) - Blackmailer, Vishwa Hindu Parishad Agent, Uma Bharti’s Babri mosque-breaking goon, possessor of Prophet Muhammad’s portrait, thief, slanderer, dumbass give us the answers to these fundamental scientific questions or admit your intellectual inferiority.

We know what answers to expect from a dumbass like you.

Let’s see how clever u are. Or else, you’ll turn out like duds such as Asif, Arsalan, Premajit and others who are here preaching myths, lies on this forum and living it in their own life.

Is Premajit another of Joel’s clone as many people have alleged?

Real Yashendra (Prasad): What are you and your VHP/RSS terrorists going to do with the sketch of Prophet Muhammad that you possess? Will you goons mass print it without revealing your identities and then paste it on walls to create mayhem? Did you also tell Joel, thinking that he was communal like you, that you and your saffron friends wish to see not a single mosque in India and that Muslims would meet a gory end? What evil actions are you going to take to create further mischief?

Warning: Get of of here and reform yourself before you land into serious trouble with the authorities and with the mullahs who won’t spare you and your scheming communal minded-friends.

Sanjoy and the gang of 4.

Hello Mr. Arup Isaacs alias Prabha Devi ( alias Joel Pastakia, alias Sanjoy, alias the gang of 4),

Thank you very much for accepting my request. About the rest you r free to write whatever u want. I am happy that u have accepted my first claim that you know me personally. And I had requested u not to steal my name. Thats all.

( And yes, I have visited IIT but thats either for shooting or for some personal work. I am in no way connected to the instituiton or engineering or technolgy being taught there. I am from a completely different field.)

I am a simple person. do not take tensions for me or do not agitate your mind for this. Enjoy your discussions. All the best and lots of love.
- Rai Yashendra Prasad ( good that you yourself revealed my full name ! )

Dear Mr. Arup Isaacs alias Prabha Devi alias Joel Pastakia etc,

I have never attended any of the Deepak Rao’s paranormal show. I have never attended IIT’s Tech fest. I was only planning to visit that show but the plan was shelved. U r inventing so many things…. !! And I left Zee Tv 8 years ago !! But, well, you have all the rights to imagine whatever u want. ( And, 4 ur info, I shiftd out of that address one year ago).

Dear Zack, Am sorry to mention these personal things in this august forum. My only concern is misuse of my name, which by now u must have realised urself. Nothing else.thanks.

Hello friends….

Hey this has turned out to be an exciting forum so far…..It started with Zack trying to get some popular views on the Indian Muslim population….became an intense guess work of so many people..then enters Joel..and what was a peaceful discussion so far caught up speed….whooooooohh!!!! it raced past all previous short length posts and long essays appear challenging the validity of Islamic teachings and beliefs.Few muslims try to answer these challenges but,even I would admit,were not really convincing for non-Muslims….its suffices us,Muslims to have the blindest faith in the Quran,since challenging or believing any verse of the Quran to be untrue is simply blasphemous and will outrightly lead to the expulsion from the Islamic fold…but then non-Muslims must be spoken in a different language,the language of pure reason and no faith..just as the position of science is on faiths…and above all there were certain myths created about Islam and which were entirely untrue and needed to be answered….which is why a just stopover for me became a real challenge as Yashendra puts it….”else admit the inferiority of the Quran”

Well,I have broken many myths and false allegations in the light of reason …and will continue to do so….Inshallah….by the will of Allah…

But wait…it takes a new turn…another Yashendra”real” chirps in…and then it turns out to be a personal battle between Joel(Arup?) and this newcomer…and we have Joel singing a different tune…I am surprised to hear the term “blasphemy” from a blasphemist!

Truely its the weirdest blog I have been…Zack take care else one day you will forget yourself what was your aim of starting this blog…

Asif alZarq

Dear Asif,
You have broken no myths.
The general interpretation of Islam as understood by the Non-Muslims is NOW more than ever confirmed as a Fanatical religion, which harbors terrorists and people with whom you cannot reason.
Today there is discussion in various countries for Muslim profiling and suspicion towards every young muslim over the age of 14.
Just calling a religion peaceful is not enough. If Islaam means peace, please demonstrate it. Don’t quote the Koran……….and try to get away with murder. Indians have a saying for such people. “Muh me ram aur bagal me churi”(The name of GOD in their mouth but a sword in their hands) Incidently the whole world has witnessed yound MUSLIMS doing this to innocent victims numerous times on world Telivision.
You say that you have a right to live in INDIA…..we Hindus agree……..but NOT with the evil fantasy of taking over the country as your fore fathers did when they came to India which was the most prosperous country in the world before it was looted and plundered by the likes of Mahmood Ghazni and the others.
Stop taking the name of Allah in vain. Every time you kill an innocent victim and there is a chant of allah-o-akbar…….does it sound sweet????
Why is every second Muslim named after the prophet? And when these people are blowing up planes and themselves…..does it give confidence to non-muslims to even dream that the prophet propogated the meessage of peace in the world.
Actions are more powerful then words. Stop doing LIP Service and start living in peace.
Why don’t the Muslim nations who are so RICH, not rich enough to take care of the millions of palastinians refugees and rehabilitate them and give their children education and a decent life to face the world as great citizens of the world and contribute to society, instead of becoming human bombs?
You can quote the koran all day and all night till the day of the judgement, but if the words and actions of the people who talk about it do not match nobody will believe your rants and chants.
In peace and love and brotherhood and all the other words that you people desperately need to understand.
Premajit
PS. I must clarify that I have nothing to do with any one in any premium techinal university.

Asif,

Blind faith is for those lacking wisdom or brains. Tomorrrow if I tell u that within the earth there exists a winged creature who gives out “messages” to “inspired” men, will u believe me? No, man. You’ll call me a fool and demand reasons and proofs. Similarly, rational people do not believe in fairy tales of the Quran or Purans without good reasons and supporting evidence.

Without sound reasons and solid proofs (empirical/direct), how can you know whether a certain thing is true or not? Due to blind faith, the cock and bull stories of Quran have been accepted as “truths” by a non-thinking majority.

Proofs and valid reasons are needed for everything before they can be accepted. At least sensible people follow this rule and have benefitted much.

Why not answer all questions put to you before boasting and making a bigger fool of urself?

Sanjoy

i was reading an interview of the imam of fatih pur mosque delhi imam mufti muhammad mukkaram nakshbandi. In the interview he said that the population of muslims in india was at least more than 300 million.(you can find the interview at http://jang.com.pk/jang/aug2006-daily/12-08-2006/dunia.htm)

Dear Zack,
A religion should grow only by its principles and people accepting it. But Islam is growing by fucking muslim women by muslim men. Is it not so? So Islam grows only by highest fertility rate. Is it a proud thing? While man is progressing in different spheres in this 21st century, muslims are progressing only in their population by fucking. What is your answer Zack? do u have guts to answer this?

Dear Subbu,

How did u assume that Islam is growing only becoz Muslim men are ******* muslim women ? !! Even the men of other communities are helping the muslim women in this sector. In India most of this ‘growth’ in muslim population is courtesy Hindu men. And in other countries, the US British and Israel armies are trying their best. In countries like Saudi Arabia and UAE ( Dubai & Sharjah) Western Men & Indian men are flocking to inseminate Arab & other muslim women. This is due to great magnetic attraction of muslim females and their voluptuous bodies. …… Christian Armies are destroying muslim men so that more & more muslim women become free. ….And after liberating Afgansitan from the Taliban men, havnt u seen the plethora of Beauty parlours, western dresses etc mushroomed in Kabul, Kandahar etc. The women there r grooming themselves better for non-muslim men.

Subbu and Santana…
Extremely well touched topic…who is fucking whom….well lets try to judge from a neutral angle….and I would supply you wth proofs…and not just do guessing work like you…

1…Largest number of prostitutes in India are Nepali HINDUS…brothel going HINDU men will confirm this.

2…Most actresses in Indian film industry are HINDUS..and everyone would accept that they are no better than prostitutes.

3…HINDU goddesses wear extremely tight and scanty clothes…can be considered as good SEX DOLLS!!!

4…Most sex scandals in India occur between HINDU politicans,businessmen,religious leaders and HINDU women…anyone reading newspapers daily knows this fact.

5…Most high class prostitutes in northern India are PUNJABI HINDUS…who sell their bodies for maintaining a high standard of living.

6…American as well as European men are slowly taking to same sex relationships…so the remaining heterosexuals will sooner have no other options but the muslim men…which also justifies the steady immigration of muslim men to these countries even after 9/11..its good that 4 marraiges are legalized in Islam…wont be of much good to Muslim women but will serve the interests of women of other religions…

7.Biggest religion endorsed brothel is composed of HINDU widows of KASHI and MATHURA..temples in Himalayan ranges are dens of lust.

8.Western pornographic films now catch the latest trends in their country..sons fuc-king their moms,…and dads fuc-king their daughters…full family sex videos is what they call it.,…and also includes sisters being fuc-ked by brothers…so I dont think these westerners will need muslim women to satisfy their lust..they get it at their home itself.

9…The inter racial pornographic videos released all over the net consist primaily of HINDUS girls showing their nice juicy holes to the world along with white men pumping them hard!!.Also blacks have a significant role sometimes pouring gallons of semen into small,tight asses of young and sexy HINDU girls.I know that they are HINDU girls since they are interviewed before the hard fuc-k to confirm their origin…most of them are generally of Rajasthani HINDU origin..names given by them and passport details prove their HINDU identity.

10…It appears that HINDU men have “outsoorced” this fuc-king business…the contract came to us Muslim men first…since we are adept at handling more than one women(four wives theory prove this capability beyond doubt!!!)..However we are busy fuc-king our own women..and religious considerations also limited aur sexual sphere only to our wives…so it seems that the contract of fuc-king HINDU women have gone to the Westerners…Men who fuc-k their own mothers and sisters now fuc-k your wives and sisters..proving your impotency by all means!!!

The bottom line is that idiots like you who have no idea about the practical ground situation should SHUT UP and SIT QUIET…and instead check with your sisters and aunties for the truth that who is fuc-king whom..

Asif alZarq

quoted by asif
>

and what you and your scholars talk about your faith makes sense, is it?…LOL

“supra cosmic absolute conciousness is the same sort of talk that Brahmin priests used to indulge in when explaining”
—by asif

i mean this quote—-and thinks that we believe in his talk…LOL

sorry for interupting, after perusing all the comments, I liked what joel said.and he is right is right…law of nature “unity underlying diversity”. nobody should try to break it and create imbalance.

A SAMPLE LIST OF THE BASELESS MYTHS FOUND IN THE “HOLY”
QURAN:

Apart from the fact that all the key terms,
beliefs and rituals in the Quran are borrowed from
older sources, here’s a list of the “Fairy Tales”
narrated by the mythical creature Jibril that constitutes the Holy Quran.

These baseless myths are blindly accepted by the
“believers” as truthful “Divine Revelations”:

1.”The story of the she-camel who leapt
out of a rock and became a
prophet ” (Suras 7:73-77,85; 91:14;
54:29).

2. The story of an entire village of people
who were turned into apes because
they broke Allah’s laws (Suras 2:65;
7:163-166).

3.The gushing 12 springs story found in
Sura 2:60.

4. In what is called the “Rip Van Winkle”
story, seven men and their animals
slept for 309 years in a cave and then
woke up perfectly fine (Sura 18:9-26).

5. The fable of the pieces of four dead,
cut-up birds getting up and flying (Sura
2:260).

6. The fantastic tale that God made a man
“die for a hundred years” with no ill
effects on his food, drink, or donkey
(Sura 2:259ff.).

7. The tale of Abraham being delivered
from Nimrod’s fire ( Suras 21:51-
71; 29:16, 17; 37:97,98).

It must be pointed out that Nimrod and
Abraham did not live at the same time.
Ironical!

8. The silly story found in Sura 7:171 of
Allah lifting up Mount Sinai and
holding it over the heads of the Jews as
a threat to squash them if they rejected
the law.

9. The making of the golden calf in the
wilderness, in which the image jumped
out of the fire fully formed and actually
mooed (Suras 7:148;20:88).

10.The story of a flying trip on a winged
horse through the seven
aerial heavens.

11. The Houries-whores and Pearl-Skinned Gay
gigolos of paradise.

12. According to the literal Arabic
translation of Sura 3:106, 107, on
Judgment Day, only people with
white faces will be saved. People
with black faces will be damned.

13. The Quran promises a heaven full of
wine and free sex (Suras 2:25;
4:57; 11:23; 47:15).

If drunkenness and gross immorality
is sinful on earth, how is it right
in a spiritual heavencomposed of
earthly elements? Will we have
mouths, tongues, stomachs,
anuses andpenises/vaginas in heaven
to swallow, taste, digest, excrete and
urinate the waste generated by the wine/milk/honey consumed? Besides, can a spiritual/non-physical place
like heaven, in the first place, be constituted of earthly or physical
elements? A big contradiction!

Regards,

Joel Pastakia

I knew that all these SUBBU and SANTANA and S.SINGH …are actually clones of Joel…who has sprang again trying to show ISLAM in poor light…but you should know that people like you have tried to malign ISLAM and instead ended up in propagating ISLAM !!

Just an example..You all must be knowing the famous American Rechard Reid more commonly known as the shoe bomber…converted to Islam.What he did cant be praised by any means …he tried to bomb down a plane..but then when you see your co religionists harmed and humiliated in every possible way …its difficult to keep your cool..it happens with all communities…But what is more interesting from all this is that…..BEFORE HER BROTHER WAS SENTENCED TO 20 YEARS IMPRISONMENT BY THE FEDERAL COURT FRO TERRORIST ACTIVITIES..REID’S SISTER HAD APPARANTLY AN ANTIPATHY TOWARDS ISLAM…BUT THEN THIS ACT OF HER BROTHER COMPELLED HER FROM INSIDE TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND WHAT IS ISLAM….AND TODAY SHE IS A DEVOUT AND PRACTISING MUSLIM….PRAISE BE TO ALLAH.

So also Joel…your relentless campaign against Islam will actually help to spread ISLAM…after all ISLAM has spread with a greater speed through its former enemies…And I am sure to a great extent that when you will come to your senses you will discover yourself at the altar of the All-Forgiving ALLAH…

Bye,
Asif al Zarq

Asif Bhai,

Salaam Ailaikum ! You keep accusing me of things which I am not responsible for. I am not opposed to Islam or any religion for that matter. Haven’t you noticed the manner in which I’ve rebuffed several loony Hindu writers on this forum? Have you not read the essay (Multi Hued Fanaticism) in which I’ve exposed the hypocrisy of every faith including the superstitions of science?

In ypur blind zeal to project Islam as the true faith, you’ve condescended to the level of the ignorant, hypocrite and superstitious. You jump to defend every idiotic Islamic belief under the assumption that what the Quran preaches is absolute truth when to the unbiased observer it’s obvious that the Quran is far from perfect or comprehensive and that it’s so easy to demolish its mythical claims.

At the same time, let me make it clear that I do not hold the Prophet Muhammad - I bow to all Prophets past, present and future - responsible for the errors in the Quran. The Quran was committed to writing much after the demise of Rasool; several competing versions had sprung up like the many Hadiths with each claiming to be the original. There’s exists no extant copy of the Quran despite claims made by blind fanatics to the contrary. There’s reason to believe that the present version of the Quran is not authentic. Scholarly studies have shown this to be so. When even a curious student like me reads the Quran, the umpteen mistakes, contradictions and myths in it become apparent.

A Perfected Being like a Prophet cannot commit these mistakes. Perhaps,Muhammad’s disciples were responsible for the errors that later crept in. Anyway, not a single religious book can claim to be comprehensive.

Books are mere maps along the way to the TRUTH. And, the Truth is not a matter of intellectually submitting to theories or sermons.

The Absolute and concomitant Cosmic Truths have to be first reasoned upon and then actually realised through direct experiences in subtler states of consciousness before one can stand up and emphatically declare that so and so thing is true or not! A man of spiritual realisation is a yogi/mystic/sufi and is not a mere talker, superficial ritualist or blind believer who has no valid answers or proofs to support his claims.

A man of actual mystical realisation possesses the power, light, peace and knowledge of the physical and supra physical planes and can truly move mountains in any sense! Neither is a man of actual spiritual realisation a speculator or one who draws flimsy/superficial conclusions like the scientists who can only deals inferentially with the surface laws - and mind you the surface laws are not ineluctable….they can be changed under certain circumstances….

I pity the Shoe Bomber and his ilk. Nothing what they believe in is true and all their silly religious dogmas (like the ones you hold) can easily be demolished and he can (like you) be made to appear a fool.

If Islam wants to attract to its bosom perverts, lunatics, irrational fools and non-questioning idiots to add to its already existing ignorant believers, it is most welcome. But, do not try to thrust all your Islamic fairy tales down the throats of others.

Remember, Unity underlying diversity is the cosmic plan on ever plane of existence leading to the Absolute. Neither will the whole world ever become wholly Muslim or Hindu or Christian; differences will always exist. But, since the basal truth underlying every faith is the quest of the Absolute Truth, let’s consider every religion to be a radius leading to one common centre. Nature has this in mind, Asif. Self-Realisation will be the religion of the enlightened future, perhaps!

Regards,

Joel P

I just got back from some urgent work and signed in to find that the discussion has taken a turn towards use of 4 letter words without any interception from the blog master.

Zack are you keeping a track of the blogs or have you started operating like the Almighty……and have given freedom to all human beings to operate as they want.

People…… name calling will not solve any issue. Only reasonable understanding of each other’s view will do the job……..

And ASIF, for a change if you get time off…..watching and analysing pornography, of which you have deep knowledge and understanding, would you like to answer some of the questions about the fundamental beliefs of the ISLAM faith??? and yourself to better understand where we stand.

I am hoping that you have some objectivity and you will tell me why
1) All young Muslim terrorists shout Allah 0 Akbar when they are killing innocent civilians?
2) Are there truly 72 virgins who are waiting for providing their services to the Suicide squad? Is heaven a celestial whorehouse?
3) Why are the Shias killing Sunnis and vice versa?
4) Do you ASIF ZARQ agree with the extremist actions of followers of ISLAM of bombing and killing innocent victims in USA, Spain, Kashmir & Mumbai and other places.
Do you agree that the destruction of the Buddha statues by the Taliban in Afghanistan was an act of peace by followers of ISLAM (which incidently means peace?)
5) Have you studied the vedic literature or any Hindu scriptures before you (trash) talk about the Hindu Dieties and the understanding of Advait philosophy?
6) Do you believe that a human soul can achieve enlightenment, self realization or Nirvikalpa samadhi?
7) Do you believe that all life on earth is sacred? ( including plants and animals)
8) What is the real meaning of JIHAD?
Please be as reasonable as you can and let me know the answers to the above. Can you do it without the use of unparlamentary and insulting language.
Premajit

SOME OF THE PRE-ISLAMIC SOURCES THE QURAN BORROWED FROM:

1.PAGAN ARABIAN SOURCES:

The Quran repeats fanciful Arabian fables as if they were true.

“Arabic legends about the fabulous jinns fill its pages” (G.G. Pfander, Balance of Truth, pp. 283).

“The story of the she-camel who leapt out of a rock and became a prophet was known long before Muhammad” (Suras 7:73-77,85; 91:14; 54:29).

The story of an entire village of people who were turned into apes because they broke the sabbath by fishing was a popular legend in Muhammad’s day (Suras 2:65; 7:163-166).

The gushing 12 springs story found in Sura 2:60 comes from pre-Islamic legends.

In what is called the “Rip Van Winkle” story, seven men and their animals slept for 309 years in a cave and then woke up perfectly fine (Sura 18:9-26)!

This legend is found in Greek and Christian fables as well as Arabian lore.

The fable of the pieces of four dead, cut-up birds getting up and flying was well known in Muhammad’s time (Sura 2:260).

It is also clear that Muhammad used such pre-Islamic literature as the Saba Moallaqat of Imra’ul Cays in his composition of Suras 21:96; 29:31,46; 37:59; 54:1, and 93:1.

2.JEWISH SOURCES:

Many of the stories in the Quran come from the Jewish Talmud, the Midrash, and many apocryphal works.

This was pointed out by Abraham Geiger in 1833, and further documented by another Jewish scholar, Dr. Abraham Katsh, of New York University, in 1954 (The Concise Dictionary of Islam, p. 229; Jomier, The Bible and the Quran – Henry Regency Co., Chicago, 1959, 59ff; Sell, Studies, pp. 163ff.; Guillaume, Islam, p. 13.

A. The source of Sura 3:35-37 is the fanciful book called The Protevangelion’s James the Lesser.

B. The source of Sura 87:19 is the Testament of Abraham.

C. The source of Sura 27:17-44 is the Second Targum of Esther.

D. The fantastic tale that God made a man “die for a hundred years” with no ill effects on his food, drink, or donkey was a Jewish fable (Sura 2:259ff.).

E. The idea that Moses was resurrected and other material came from the Jewish Talmud (Sura 2:55, 56, 67).

F. The story in Sura 5:30,31 can also be found in pre-Islamic works from Pirke Rabbi Eleazer, the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziah and the Targum of Jerusalem.

G. The tale of Abraham being delivered from Nimrod’s fire came from the Midrash Rabbah (see Suras 21:51-71; 29:16, 17; 37:97,98).

It must be also pointed out that Nimrod and Abraham did not live at the same time. “Jibril”, the mythical creature, was always mixing people together in the Quran who did not live at the same time.

H. The non-biblical details of the visit of the Queen of Sheba (Saba) in Sura 27:20-44 came from the Second Targum of the Book of Esther.

I. The source of Sura 2:102 is no doubt the Midrash Yalkut (chapter 44).

J. The story found in Sura 7:171 of God lifting up Mount Sinai and holding it over the heads of the Jews as a threat to squash them if they rejected the law came from the Jewish book Abodah Sarah.

K. The story of the making of the golden calf in the wilderness, in which the image jumped out of the fire fully formed and actually mooed (Suras 7:148; 20:88), came from Pirke Rabbi Eleazer.

L) The seven heavens and hells described in the Quran came from the Zohar and the Hagigah.

M) Muhammad utilized the Testament of Abraham to teach that a scale or balance will be used on the day of judgment to weigh good and bad deeds in order to determine whether one goes to heaven or hell (Suras 42:17; 101:6-9).

3.HERETICAL CHRISTIAN SOURCES:

One of the most documented and damaging facts about the Quran is that Muhammad used heretical “Christian” Gnostic gospels and their fables for material in the Quran.

Encyclopedia Britannica comments:

“The gospel was known to him chiefly through apocryphal and heretical sources” (15:648).

This has been demonstrated many times by various scholars (Richard Bell, Introduction to the Quran, pp. 163ff. See also: Bell, The Origin of Islam in Its Christian Environment, pp. 110ff, 139ff; Sell, Studies, pp. 216ff. See also Tisdall and Pfander).

For example, in Suras 3:49 and 100:11O, the baby Jesus speaks from the cradle! Later on, the Quran has Jesus making clay birds come alive.

The Bible tells us that the first miracle Jesus did was at the wedding at Cana (John 2:11).

4. SABEAN SOURCES:

Muhammad incorporated parts of the religion of the Sabeans into Islam (Encyclopedia off Islam (ed. Eliade), pp. 303ff.; International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, pp. 1:219ff.).

He adopted such pagan rituals as:
Worshiping at Kabah, praying five times a day towards Mecca (Muhammad chose five of the same times the Sabeans prayed).

NOTE: The rituals associated with the Hajj are copied from Vedic rites - (Hajj in Sanskrit means “holy pilgrimage”; before Muhammad’s time, Hajj was termed Okaj, a corruption of the original Sanskrit. Besides, Kabba is another pure Vedic Sanskrit word that means “holy shrine” and Kaabali (in Sanskrit) means “Lord Of the Shrine - Shiva”).

Further, circumbulating a Shiv-linga stone (Sangmay Aswaad - in Sanskrit Sanghe Ashwet means “black stone”), tonsuring the head, donning seamless garments, significance attached to water (zam zam), etc, are all Vedic rituals that have been adopted by Islam.

Fasting for part of a day for an entire month.

5. EASTERN RELIGIOUS RITUALS:

Muhammad derived some of his ideas from Eastern religions such as Zoroastrianism and Hinduism.
All of these things were in existence long before Muhammad was born.

The Quran records the following things which are ascribed to Muhammad but in reality were previously known stories now attributed to him for the first time (Sell, Studies, pp. 219ff.)

The story of a flying trip through seven heavens on a winged horse (another mythical creature).

The Houries of paradise.
Azazil and other spirits coming up from Hades.
The “light” of Muhammad.
The bridge of Sirat.
Paradise with its wine, women, and song (from the Persians).
The king of death.
The peacock story.

Conclusion:

While the devout Muslim believes with all of his heart that the rituals and doctrines of Islam are entirely “heavenly” in origin and thus cannot have any earthly sources, Middle East scholars have demonstrated beyond all doubt that every major term, ritual and belief in Islam can be traced back to pre-Islamic Arabian culture.

In other words Muhammad did not preach anything new. Everything he taught had been believed and practised in Arabia long before he was ever born. Even the idea of “only one God” was borrowed from the Jews and the Christians.

PS: Above all, the word and concept for God (Allah) in the Quran is a pure Vedic-Sanskrit word).

Regards,

Joel P

CHANGES IN THE QURAN:

According to Professor Guillaume in his book, Islam, (pp. 191ff.), some of the original verses of the Quran were lost.

For example, one Sura originally had 200 verses in the days of Ayesha. But by the time Uthman standardized the text of the Quran, it had only 73 verses! A total of 127 verses had been lost, and they have never been recovered.

The Shiite Muslims claim that Uthman left out 25 percent of the original verses in the Quran for political reasons (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia, V:152).

That there are verses which got left out of Uthman’s version of the Quran is universally recognized (Shorter Encyclopedia off Islam, pp. 278-282; Guillaume, Islam, p. 191; Wherry, A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, pp. 110-111).

John Burton’s book, The Collection of the Quran, which was published by Cambridge University, documents how such verses were lost (London University Press, 1977, pp. 117ff. See also Arthur Jeffery, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion, New York; Liberal Arts Press, 1958, pp. 66-68).

Burton states concerning the Muslim claim that the Quran is perfect: “The Muslin accounts of the history of the Quran texts are a mass of confusion, contradiction and inconsistencies” (Burton, Collection, p. 231).
Changes in the Quran.

One interesting way that some off the original verses of the Quran were lost is that a follower of Muhammad named Abdollah Sarh would make suggestions to Muhammad about rephrasing, adding to, or subtracting from the Suras. Muhammad often did as Sarh suggested.

Ali Dashti explains what happened:

“Abdollah renounced Islam on the ground that the revelations, if from God, could not be changed at the prompting of a scribe such as he. After his apostasy he went to Mecca and joined the Qorayshites” (Dashti, 23 Years, p. 98).

It is no wonder that when Muhammad conquered Mecca one of the first people he killed was Abdollah, for he knew too much and opened his mouth too often.

Some Verses Abrogated:

In the abrogation process spoken of earlier, verses which are contradictory to Muslim faith and practice have been removed from the text, such as the “satanic verses” in which Muhammad approved of the worship of the three goddesses, the daughters of Allah (Al Lat, Al Uzza, Al Mannat).

The Arabic scholar E. Wherry comments:
“There being some passages in the Quran which are contradictory, the Muhammadan doctors obviate any objection from thence by the doctrine of abrogation; for they say that God in the Quran commanded several things which were for good reasons afterwards revoked and abrogated” (A Comprehensive Commentary on the Qurun, p. 110).

Wherry goes on to document numerous examples of verses taken out of the Quran.

Canon Sell in his work, Historical Development of the Quran, also comments on the practice of abrogating verses out of the Quran if they are troublesome: “It is to us astounding how so compromising a procedure can have been permitted to be introduced into the system by friends and foes (Madras: Diocesan Press, 1923, pp. 36-37).

Some Verses Added:

Not only have parts of the Quran been lost, but entire verses and chapters have been added to it. For example, Ubai had several Suras in his manuscript of the Quran which Uthman omitted from his standardized text.

Thus there were Qurans in circulation before Uthman’s text which had additional revelations from Muhammad that Uthman did not find or approve of, and thus he failed to place them in his text.

No Originals:

As to the claim that the original manuscript of the Quran is still in existence, we have already pointed out there was no single “manuscript” of the Quran.

Caesar Farah in his book on Islam, states:
“When Muhammad died there existed no singular codex of the sacred text” (Caesar Farah, Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York; Barrons, 1987, p. 28).

The Shorter Encyclopedia off Islam comments:
“One thing only is certain and is openly recognized by tradition, namely, that there was not in existence any collection of revelations in the final form, because, as long as he was alive, new revelations were being added to the earlier ones” (p. 271).

Regards,

Joel P

Hello Friends…

A few days back Joel had submitted a so called sample list of “baseless myths” found in the Quran….But any true Quran reader would easily distinguish that Joel has lied with an apparent aim of maligning Islam….which also goes on to prove that Joel has no study of his own in this matter….he has copied all these anti Islamic rhetoric from some third party source and thus the mistakes have been copied along!!

NOTE TO ALL MUSLIMS : BEWARE OF SUCH PEOPLE LIKE JOEL-THEY WILL TRY TO DISINFORM YOU ABOUT YOUR RELIGION AND YOUR PROPHET AND YOUR QURAN.THEY PREACH WHAT IS NOT IN THE HOLY QURAN AND TRY TO CHANGE THE MEANINGS AND INSTANCES TO APPEAR AS IF THE QURAN IS A LIE AND THUS MISLEAD YOU.ALLAH SAVE US FROM THE TREACHERY OF ALL SUCH EVIL BEINGS…AMEEN

Well Joel…the answers to your sample list:
1)You claimed that ”The story of the she-camel who leapt out of a rock and became a prophet ” (Suras 7:73-77,85; 91:14;54:29).The verses you referred to tell that Allah ordered a she camel to appear out of a rocky mountain.This is described in the Quran as a clear sign to the community of Prophet of Saleh who did not want to believe in the existence of Allah.Further to test their submission to Allah the community of Prophet Salih were ordered never to harm the camel.This in not uncommon in Islam….Allah first shows a miracle to the ignorant fools who refuse His existence and then on the basis of that miracle Allah tests the faith of the Believers.THE VERSES DON’T DESCRIBE THE CAMEL AS A PROPHET AS YOU HAVE CLAIMED.
2)What a furore!When Darwin claimed that all men have transcended from apes…the scientific community accepts his conjecture as a The Theory of Evolution(although by an extension of that theory,apes should be converting to humans continuously since theory is one that should hold over all times like the Theory of Gravitation…however we don’t find such instances today despite the vigorous coverage of the media of the animal world!!).But when the Quran mentions that a certain community was punished by Allah and was genetically transformed to develop the external characteristics of Apes…ignorants like Joel jump to conclude that the Quran is a fairy tale!The incident above mentioned in the Quran occurred somewhere in the middle east since it alongwith the north eastern African continent was the first place where human beings first began to live.Now have you ever looked into the faces of the blacks of Africa closely??Their faces and skull’s anatomy resembles more of that of apes rather than other humans….this is the main reason why Darwin had claimed that humans descended from apes.So it is quite possible that the black people of Africa are descendants from that community of Salih who were turned into ape like.And in certain parts of Africa,even in these modern times,people live in tribes almost naked and hunt like animals…..think over these events Joel ..why you and me are living in plush air conditioned homes conjecturing on the internet and why a poor black deep in the forests of Africa struggling with the “Animal World” to get his food and once he gets it he eats it like animal too..whereas you get it prepared in the micro oven.The former curse of Allah is evident.And now look at the same Africa.. progressive people are those tribes who have either accepted Islam or Christianity generally.Now do you find the connection Joel???Its Islam and rudimentary Islam(Christianity) which have delivered these human cum apes from the curse of ALLAH.
And I am talking about our age the 21st century…go back a thousand or two thousand years you will find most parts of Africa ruled by these “Apes”.I hope your treachery of maligning Islam has been exposed Joel!
NOTE:Any African Black please condone me….I mean no offense to your physical appearance..all is from ALLAH..and all human beings are same in His eyes…
Joel…why you fail to understand the meaning of the Quran(if you have ever read the Quran in the first place)is because you read with a spirit of falsifying it which is why your mind gets its own wrong meanings.Hint:Reading with an objective but neutral attitude might help a pervert like you blindly bent on maligning Islam

3)The Gushing of 12 rivers :
Joel I thought you were a student of science..but you proved yourself to be devoid of knowledge of basic geological sciences!!And you brag about “exposing Myths of all religions on the lines of science”!!!!
Even a student of class 6 can teach you that springs result from the exposure in rocks due to the tremendous presuure of underground water.Water is a liquid and hence compressible to a very limited extent.The resulting pressure can break open even hard rocks.This happens in the case of springs .And is it very impossible that a rocky place breaks up to release 12 points of a gushing stream???The recent Tsunami in the Indian ocean altered geographical features and geological construction and composition of many of the affected place.To the average reader I ask…..is it very impossible for the All Powerful ALLAH Who has caused this massive geological phenomenon a few months back..to have caused a small fissure in a rocky mountain releasing 12 springs???? Obviously its very much possible!!And Joel have you ever viewed the footages of volcanic eruptions…how the lava flows in all directions…just as the springs of the Quranic revealations flowed on the fissuring of the rocky source.Actually Joel..you have become so blinded by your hatred towards Islam that even common things appear to be miracles to you!!!
(to be continued in the next post)
Thanks,
Asif alZarq

Hi..all of you…

This post is a continuation of the previous post in which I have deplored the lies and ignorance of Joel vis-s-vis Quran and Islamic teachings..

4)Rip Van Winkle Story…..This was the name given by Joel to the famous event known as Ashab al Kahf(The Companions of the Cave).Since the Ashab al Kahf happened several centuries before the coming of Islam….and it is indeed real since it has been mentioned in the Quran and no part of the Quran has ever been falsified…..hence it can be safely assumed that the story of Rip Van Winkle coming down from the mountains as an old man with a rusty gun in his hand has been actually based on the theme of Ashab al-Kahf and a “copyright” violation!
On the surface it is indeed a very contradictory phenomenon…But then Muslims believe that ALLAH is all powerful and can make everything to happen if He wills.A muslim needs no further explanation…However people like Joel and Premajit needs…being devoid of the wisdom that only true faith can instill.
ALLAH asks the Believers to look around the world for His clear signs.And indeed if we “look around” we will come across the bats ,ground squirrels,basking sharks,mouse lemurs all of which demonstrate a physical phenomenon known as HIBERNATION. Hibernation is a state of inactivity and metabolic depression in animals, characterized by lower body temperature, slower breathing, and lower metabolic rate, to conserve energy especially during winter. Hibernation may last several days or weeks depending on species, ambient temperature, and time of year.Thus if we combine this phenomenon with another phenomenon known as the state of COMA…we can get a clear picture of what might have happened to the seven men and their animals in the cave.They underwent Hibernation for a much longer period…309 years by the will of ALLAH.
Now there may be an argument that how is it possible that a normal person may hibernate for such a long period.However Medical history is replete with examples which defy human logic and established physiological processes have been known to be violated in many cases.Well Joel how long can you,or for that matter any of us can live without breathing?One minute,two,three…..certainly not…we will exasperate for air with 40 to 50 seconds. I will cite a recent example of one Md Hafizul who have stayed without breathing for 10 hours underwater…and if you don’t believe me then contact Calcutta Swimming Club and this entire episode was covered by West Bengal media.So if in this case the basic physiological process of breathing was being violated to such a large extent..something more than 700 times(10 hours is 720 times of 50 seconds) then is it not possible that a person who can maximum stay without food water for about a month or a bit more can under extraordinary circumstances stay in hibernation for 309 years??

Think over it…J

5)The Four dead cut –up birds….

The Quranic verse quoted by Joel is 2:260.This verse tells us that Prophet Ibrahim wanted to see how ALLAH gives life to the dead.ALLAH asked Ibrahim whether he did not believe that He is the sole giver of life and death…to which Ibrahim answered “yes” but its only that he wanted to be stronger in faith.So ALLAH asked Ibrahim to collect four birds and cut them into many pieces and put their remnants on different places.And when Ibrahim were to call those birds ..they would come back flying and alive.Now if anyone of us want to regelate this to the catyegory of a fable and falsehood…then actually what are we doing????….BY QUESTIONING THIS EVENT’S VALIDITY WE ARE QUESTIONING THE POWER OF ALLAH TO GIVE LIFE AND DEATH!!
Now If we believe that ALLAH can give life then this event is a normal event…..ALSO SUPPORTED BY SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLES:
i)The Principle of indestructibility of matter states that matter can neither created nor destroyed…(this principle holds in most cases except nuclear fission).Stated in simple terms this Principle seeks to establish that a matter which is seemingly destroyed is actually dissipated into other forms and given the right process the original matter can be restored through chemical process.
ii)Scientists who study the composition of Protoplasm(basic life matter)have come to the conclusion that its impossible to determine it since the protoplasm dies whn experimented upon.Hence this establishes that man cannot give life nor death as also it confirms the Quranic verse in which ALLAH says “How can you disbelieve in ALLAH?Seeing that you were dead and He gave you life then He will give you death,then again will bring you to life(Day of ressurection),and then unto Him you will return”(Surah 2:28)

Thus if we combine the above two things…one an established principle and another a scientific fact..then what do we get???WE GET THAT THE GIVING OF LIFE IS IN THE HANDS OF THE UNKNOWN….AND THAT UNKNOWN BEING CAN REVERSE DEATH AND CAUSE LIFE TO FLOURISH AGAIN IF IT WILLED SO.
I call that Unknown Being ALLAH…

6) The Hundred year controversy is basically same as the Ashab al-Kahf event….this has been answered in point number 4…..

7)WHAT A BLATANT LIE!!!! The Quran does NOT ever say that Prophet Ibrahim(Abraham) was thrown into fire by Nimrod…..the Quran says that it was PHARAOH who was responsible for this act. Pharaoh is a title used to refer to any ruler, usually male, of the Egyptian kingdom in the pre-Christian, pre-Islamic period. The Quran no more elaborates on this as to who was the real Pharaoh who did this act..

Secondly …the Quran says that Ibrahim was “SAVED” from the fire…the Quran does not say that Ibrahim was actually in the fire…..A more detailed explanation is found in the Hadiths where it is found that the fire got extinguished before it could touch Ibrahim…the cause of extinguishing is not specified.

Joel …please stop publishing wholesale incorrect things.And also give me the parent websites from where you copy all these materials and supply this blog with articles which appear no more than illegitimate children of some parent master copy …

Your intention of misleading Muslims and others have stood exposed.

NOTE TO MUSLIMS:THE PROPHET OF ALLAH,MUHAMMAD SAID WHILE REFERRING TO OUR AGE HAS SAID THAT IN THOSE TYRANNICAL DAYS ONE OF THE GRETAEST ATTEMPTS OF THE ENEMIES OF ISLAM WILL BE TO FALSIFY ISLAM AND ITS HOLY BOOK-THE QURAN.HENCE BROTHERS AND SISTERS BEWARE OF THESE ENEMIES WHO TRY TO TAKE AWAY YOUR FAITH AWAY FROM YOU.THEY ARE THE AGENTS OF EVIL AND THEIR WAYS ARE FALSEHOOD…SINCE ON THE BASIS OF TRUTH ISLAM HAS ALWAYS TRIUMPHED AND WILL ALWAYS CONTINUE TO TRIUMPH…BY THE WILL OF ALLAH!

(to be continued in the next post)

Thanks
Asif alZarq

Hi friends…..the remaining part of my answer to Joel’s allegation about the Quran being comparable to a book of fables…

Joel I laugh at your attempts to malign ISLAM by quoting from the Quran and changing the words to suit your malicious needs and intentions .You can fool people who don’t know the Quran and apparently that is your main intention…to show Islam in a poor light….However know this very well that Muslims keep a knowledge of their religion and will not be taken into your false claims…

Joel ..you said that Surah 7:148 said that the colden calf jumped out of fire and mooed.What a BIG BIG LIE you have tried to propagate….Take up any contemporary tranliteration of the Quran in the market and you will find that Surah 7:148 says…”And the people of Musa(Moses) made in his absence,out of their ornaments,the image of a calf(for worship).It had a sound(as if it was mooing).Did they not see that it could neither speak to them nor guide them to the way?They took it for worship and they were Zalimun(wrong-doers)”
So the people of Musa made an image of the calf..and not that the calf jumped out of the fire as propagated by Joel…secondly…it did not moo…a sound producing mechanism was attached to it by those people who made it so that it APPEARED to moo.And ALLAH explains this in a very denouncing way that although the calf COULD NEITHER SPEAK nor move hence the people only demonstrated their ignorance in worshipping it….something which idol worshippers do…worship images and idols which can be broken with one kick in the butt!!They seek protection from gods who can’t protect themselves…..what a fantasy!!!

Now Joel goes on to change the word of the Quran in a very cunning manner which is hard to detect but that single change can cause a full change in the meaning!!He quotes the Surah 3:106,107 and says that on Judgement Day,only people WITH white faces will be saved.People WITH black faces will be damned…thus suggesting that The Quran promotes colour apartheid!!What a contradiction!!The religion which has come with a mission of eradicating differences and discrimination on the basis of anything (even discrimination on the basis of religion is not promoted making it unique among all religions) has been accused by an ignorant fool of apartheid!!!.Now my readers can take up any transliteration of Quran and Surah 3:106 would read as……”On the Day(i.e the Day of Ressurection)when some faces will BECOME white and some faces will BECOME black(to them will be said):”Did you reject Faith after accepting it?Then taste the torment (in Hell) for rejecting Faith.” 3:107 continues on the same topic ..”And for those faces who will BECOME white,they will be in ALLAH”S mercy(Paradise),therein they shall dwell forever.”

So actually this verse is related to a very limited number of people who have accepted Islam and consequently left its fold/have failed to remain a Muslim by own faults….Joel has replaced the verb BECOME by the preposition WITH…thus entirely changing the meaning of the verse….the faces of those who commit treachery in religion will become black symbolizing their evil actions…thus it actually refers to people with fair faces….and the good person’s face wil become white and hence it refers to people with black faces(earthly physical appearance).Hence from this Ayaat or verse we get to understand that before ALLAH all that matters is our real actions..not our physical beauty or colour of skin….this is the spirit of Islam…..universal brotherhood without any discrimination…

The question suggested by Joel at the end of his baseless list of ill informed allegations demonstrating his gross ignorance and copy cat attitude..is that when drunkenness and gross immorality is offence according to Islam in this present world how can they be permitted to occur in Heaven…well I don’t find any trace of Immorality in the Heaven described by Islam….please expand what you are really hinting at….However it has occurred in the Quran that wine would be allowed for the residents of Heaven…..on the surface it is really baffling that how can the Quran itself promote wine in the hereafter when at the same time it bans it forcefully on the earth..
Now consider the following …….a child of 5 years plays everyday in his courtyard and his Mother watches while sitting on the door steps….then a day comes when it rains heavily…the child wants to go and play in the courtyard as he is accustomed to ..but his Mother stops him and says “no,not today..its raining” So what is the lesson we get from here??The child is not allowed to do a thing which he can do under better circumstances…

Wine is associated with creating a very soothing influence on the mind of the person who intakes it since it affects the nervous system in a positive way in the short run.So why is such a soothing drink banned by Islam??Since under the influence of wine(or any other liquor) a person tends to lose his senses and thus is more in the risk of being influenced by Satan(since he no more controls himself totally) and likely to commit crimes and mistakes..which he would not have committed had he been in his senses….Thus wine is banned on account of the mischief it can create through a person.The material of wine,that is,the drink itself is not targeted specifically.This is also reflected in the banning of opium or for that matter anything which makes a person lose control of his senses.But in heaven the Evil Satan will no more be associated with the mind of a person..since he would be tasting his punishment alongwith his followers in Hell.With Satan gone…there is no more fear of committing mistakes and crimes…as such wine would be allowed in Heaven.

And lastly…I think Joel you have some problems in your excretory system which is why you keep on asking about how to excrete in Heaven…you claim to study the Quran..have you not come across several verses where ALLAH mentions that the residents of Heaven will have spouses purified?…Azwajun Mutahharatun or Spouses purified is mentioned in a number of verses..e.g Surah 2:25.In Islam a person loses his purity if he excretes through the anus or leaves gas,or vomits or blood/pus flows down from any cut…and in women there is the special case of menstrual releases.Thus your question is answered in the Quran itself…..excretion would not take place in the ways we do it on earth…how it will take place is a subject of controversy and only ALLAH knows that truly.Moreover Heaven is a physical place as I have explained earlier and supported my explanation…..just scroll back to my former posts and you will get your answer.DON’T JUST KEEP REPEATING YOUR STUPID QUESTIONS LIKE A NONSENSE CHILD!

NOTE TO MUSLIMS:YOU MUST HAVE A KNOWLEDGE OF ISLAM,ITS PROPHET AND ITS HOLY BOOK-THE QURAN.OTHERWISE THE EVIL SATAN MANIFESTED IN THE LIKES OF JOEL WILL MAKE ALL ATTEMPTS TO MIS GUIDE YOU.REMEMBER…ALLAH MENTIONS IN THE QURAN THAT BEWARE OF THE EVIL BEING WHO IS THE SWORN ENEMY OF MANKIND WHO WILL ATTACK YOU FROM ALL SIDES AND WITH ALL KINDS OF FALSEHOOD AND TREACHERY.JOEL AND HIS ILK ARE INDEED CANDIDATES OF PITY WHO HAVE FALLEN TO THE EVIL SUGGESTIONS OF SATAN.ALLAH GIVE THEM WISDOM AND MAY THEY RECTIFY THEIR MISTAKES AND REPENT….

Bye for now….I will be back to answer the questions posed by Premajit..they are very pertinent questions whose answers should be known to everyone

Asif alZarq

Hello Joel….I accept your Salaam but sorry I cannot give an answer to you since I am not very sure that by blaspheming with regards to ALLAH and His chosen religion Islam…and denigrating the sayings of His prophet..you attract much of Salaamti of ALLAH……

As soon as I get free from the tasks at hand I will soon be back with all the answers to your claims about the authenticity of The Holy Quran…I have read your posts and I also know about the disastrous biographies of some of the authors of the referrences you have given …I pity that you have quoted from people known for their criminal attitude…

Bye

Asif alZarq

Asif,

Thanks for replying. We’d thought you had flown off to the Quranic “heavens in the clouds” to enjoy a bit of the strip show put on by the houris whores or that you were off to drink wine, milk and honey from the rivers flowing in such mythical heavens.

I look forward to receiving your rational answers supported by hard proofs to all the queries posted by me on this site.

Asif, we’re sick of silly theories - whether taken from the Quran or any other book for that matter.

Anyway, I thought that you’d not have kept us waiting so long in defending the tales of the Quran but here poor me I’ve not got a single reasonable answer till now from you and other ignorant fanatics like you. As for the rational answers and proofs, where are they?

Can you even prove that Adam existed -archeologically, genetically or epigraphically? Yet you believe in such myths and worse.

READ THIS, BOY:

WERE ADAM AND EVE THE FIRST HUMAN BEINGS ON EARTH?

The Jews, Christians and Muslims firmly believe that Adam and Eve were the first human beings on earth; in fact, they go to the extent of calling Adam a Prophet, but, ironically, attribute to him all the weaknesses of a mere mortal; in actuality, “Prophet” means the “Supreme Manifestation of the Absolute-Consciousness” upon earth, “Perfection Personified”!


Despite the absence of archaeological, numismatic, epigraphic and/or genetic evidence to corroborate the historicity of this Semitic myth, yet I’ll analyse the Adam-Eve fairy tale from a theoretical perspective:

THe Analysis -

In face of the “literary” evidence furnished by the Bible (Genesis IV, 16-17) which shows Adam’s son Cain going to the land of Nod and marrying a wife there, how can one still believe that Adam-Eve was the first male-female pair on earth?

Now, if Adam and his wife Eve and their progeny were the only human beings around at that time, why did Cain go to the “populated” land of Nod and marry a woman there? Isn’t this a glaring contradiction? From where did the people of Nod arise when the popular belief is that apart from Adam’s spouse and family, the earth was uninhabited? This contradiction shows the fallacy of such a belief.

On the contrary, not just this one paradox demonstrates the hollowness of the claim regarding Adam and Eve as constituting the first human beings on earth, but, there’s another interesting fact, a biological one, that rips apart such baseless theological claims.

Funnily, the biblical Adam and Eve had male progeny, so even from this perspective, one wonders from where did Cain and Abel procure wives for themselves.


From a eugenic angle, it’s a universal law, an eternal fact, that “in-breeding” ends disastrously as the family tree progresses; it goes against the laws of nature to marry and procreate incestuously.

Children of incestuous or intra-gotra marriages, at some point of time or the other, or even in succeeding generations, carry within their genomes faulty genes due to the incest factor that manifest as psycho-vital-physical deformities when taken either collectively or individually as genetic malfunctions.


Though the great Bible mentions that Adam and Eve had two male heirs but, for the sake of argument, assuming that Adam’s children, as the Muslims believe, were both male and female who married among themselves (as they were the only ones on earth at that time apart from their parents), it implies that their offspring were products of an extremely abnormal breed considering that biological siblings, that blood brothers and sisters, were procreating among themselves. This evil or pernicious trend would be repeated in every generation as the family tree enlarged itself through in-breeding of the most intimate kind.

By now, all human beings would have to be necessarily related to each other in the most intimate, abnormal and anti-existential way which would have explicitly shown up as a world population composed “wholly” of lunatics and physically handicapped people; in such an eventuality, wouldn’t Nature have exterminated such an unnatural human race long ago? What God would permit such a perversion – incest – in the name of Truth?

But, our Semites, the so-called “believers”, have made a creed out of such naïve and crude beliefs! And are, in the name of crusades and jihads, imposing their ignorance violently along with many other myths on the so-called “infidels” who spurn such revolting tales!!!


Best Regards,

Joel Pastakia

Dear Joel….

Its so pity that there is a rational and scientific answer to all your foolish querries and which you yourself could have found out had you taken care to really study the Quran and Hadiths and compared them to the modern knowledge available…..But poor boy..you do not have any understanding in any subject whether it be Evolution,Religion or for that matter basic sciences !!
Neither do you keep yourself informed to any depth the subjects you talk about.THUS IT IS EVIDENT THAT NOTHING…I REPEAT ….NOTHING IS OF YOUR OWN STUDY …EVERYTHING IS AN OFFLIFT FROM SOME NAIVE AND NONSENSE WEBSITE…..I have previously asked you to supply me the full list of such idiotic websites who divert people from truth …so that I can contact my local ISP to discuss ways of preventing these non sense from reaching the people at least in my part of the globe.

And secondly I am least interested in defending the story of the marraige of Cain…since it is not found in any Islamic book…perhaps its not known to you that Cain is not even mentioned by name in the Quran!Those kind of man made mistakes are found in the Bible or what is left of it,given so many revisions it suffered at the hands of the Christian religious leaders.And about Evolution…do you know that recently Spencer Wells has redrawn a widely acclaimed theory of evolution and published in a documentary of National Geographic.By analyzing DNA from people in all regions of the world, geneticist Spencer Wells has concluded that all humans alive today are descended from a single man who lived in Africa around 60,000 years ago.
Modern humans, he contends, didn’t start their spread across the globe until after that time.
Wells’s take on the origins of modern humans and how they came to populate the rest of the planet is bound to be controversial.
His work adds to an already crowded field of opposing hypotheses proposed by those who seek answers in “stones and bones”—archaeologists and paleoanthropologists—and those who seek them in our blood—population geneticists and molecular biologists.
Over the last decade, major debate on whether early humans evolved in Africa or elsewhere, when they began outward migration, where they went, and whether they interbred with or replaced archaic species has moved out of scientific journals and into the public consciousness.
Wells addresses these issues in a new book, The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey, and a National Geographic documentary of the same title. In a straightforward story, he explains how he traced the exodus of modern humans from Africa by analyzing genetic changes in DNA from the y-chromosome.
The use of population genetics and molecular biology in human origins research has been extremely important in helping to resolve a long-running debate on where modern humans first evolved.Wells’s work and that of others confirms the more widely accepted Out of Africa model, which says that all modern humans evolved in Africa and then left in several waves of migration,to all other parts of the world
“Genetic evidence tells us that Homo sapiens are of recent origin and arose in Africa,” said S. Blair Hedges, a molecular biologist at Pennsylvania State University.
“African populations have the most ancient alleles [gene pairs that code for specific traits] and the greatest genetic diversity, which means they’re the oldest,” Hedges explained
Chris Stringer, director of the Human Origins Program at the Natural History Museum in London, said: “The multi-regional model of Homo sapiens evolving globally over a long time scale is certainly dead.”
Wells says there is no genetic evidence that supports the idea of intermixing, and several DNA studies actually argue strongly against it.
In human genetics, Y-chromosomal Adam (Y-mrca) is the patriliniear human most recent common ancestor(mrca) from whom all Y chromosomes in living men are descended. Y-chromosomal Adam is thus the male counterpart of Mitochondrial Eve (the mt-mrca), the matrilinear human most recent common ancestor, from whom all mitochondrial DNA in living humans is descended.
Y-chromosomal Adam probably lived between 60,000 and 90,000 years ago, judging from moleclar clock and genetic marker studies studies. While their descendants certainly became close intimates, Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve are separated by at least 30,000 years, or many hundred generations.
However this differences in dates is accounted for by Alison Brooks, a paleoanthropologist at George Washington University in Washington, D.C.
“The dates don’t compare well to the order or the geography of the migration patterns revealed by the fossil record,” said Brooks. “Y-chromosome data give consistently younger dates than other types of genetic data, such as mitochondrial DNA.”
It is conjectured that other males and other females MAY have been living at the time of the so called Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve.But there is no evidence to prove this…some scientists try to prove it by citing that there are may broken links in the human genes…however it may be pointed out that the study of genetics has not been completed to a final stage.There is an overcrowding of theories who agree somewhere and disagree elsewhere.And as time elapses there is newer facts coming to light.
Consider the following………….A six to seven million-year-old skull from northern Chad that shook the world when its discovery was announced in July 2002, may not be what its discoverers’ believe it to be: the oldest known member of the human family. “It is an ape and not a human ancestor,” said Milford Wolpoff, an anthropologist at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.
So all these recent theories which come out and many others which will surely follow,in the end…..will conclusiely prove what the Quran says that the first man and woman on earth was Adam and Eve…from whom we all have descended.
NOTE TO JOEL AND HIS ILK:PLEASE DO NOT CONFUSE ISLAM WITH CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISM…..I HAVE REITERATED MANY TIMES BUT YOU DO NOT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND THAT ALLAH HAS SENT THE QURAN AS A RECTIFICATION OF ALL EARLIER HOLY BOOKS INTO WHICH HUMAN MISINTERPRETATIONS,ADDITIONS AND ALTERATIONS HAVE CREPT IN.
This post will be continued and I will explain why the marraige between sisters and brothers in the period of Adam and Eve have not produced “lunatics” in present day generations….and that too on the basis of Evolution theories…
Thanks…
Asif alZarq

Hello friends……

This post is devoted to the question that if Adam and Eve were the first persons on Earth then there children multiplied by incestuous relations between brothers and sisters!!

Well in this regard I would like to draw the readers towards an Ayaat or verse of the Holy Quran…Surah 2:286

“Allâh burdens not a person beyond his scope. He gets reward for that (good) which he has earned,
and he is punished for that (evil) which he has earned. “Our Lord! Punish us not if we forget or fall
into error, our Lord! Lay not on us a burden like that which You did lay on those before us (Jews and
Christians); our Lord! Put not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Pardon us and
grant us Forgiveness. Have mercy on us. You are our Maulâ (Patron, Suppor-ter and Protector,
etc.) and give us victory over the disbelieving people.”

In this verse Allah says that man would not be burdened in his duties toward his Lord more than he can bear and this is in respect of man’s prayer that ALLAH spare them of task which exceeds their performance capacity .Perfectly logical!So do you expect that Adam and Eve and their should be given the Quran in its present form and asked to follow each and everything mentioned in it??
Obviously not!..Since this would have been impossible for the cave man Adam and his wife ..who hunted and made their living..on animals..
Hence incestuous relation was not forbidden at that time…its forbidden now since spouses can be chosen from persons other than your brothers and sisters.
Now Joel has questioned that when Eugenics theorize that children of incestuous relations then how can the present day human beings remain free from genetic disorders by and large…they should have perished long before….Well I am sorry to say but I am talking to an ignorant fool that is Joel….HE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE SPIRIT OF SCIENCE WHICH INTERREALTES EACH OF ITS BRANCHES….So the mystery of how the Quranic Adam and Eve reproduced and then their children reproduced among themselves and still the human race has not weakened or perished(on the contrary developed).is now solved when we look at the Theories of Evolution for an answer…..

In his book Journey of man:A genetic odyssey Wells says that a second wave of hominids left Africa around 45,000 years ago, reproduced rapidly, and settled in the Middle East; smaller groups went off to India and China.
Isolated by mountains and the sea for many generations, and exposed to a colder climate and less sunlight than in Africa, the Asian populations became paler over time.
Around 40,000 years ago, as the grip of the Ice Age loosened and temperatures briefly became warmer, humans moved into Central Asia. Amid the bountiful grassy steppes, they multiplied quickly. Around 35,000 years ago, small groups left Central Asia for Europe. Cold temperatures kept them there. Cut off from other groups, these migrants became paler and shorter than their African ancestors.
From there, around 20,000 years ago, another small group of Central Asians moved farther north, into Siberia and the Arctic Circle. To minimize physical exposure to the extreme cold they developed, over many generations, stout trunks, stubby fingers, and short arms and legs.
Finally, around 15,000 years ago, as another Ice Age began to wane, one small clan of Arctic dwellers followed the reindeer herd over the Bering Strait land bridge into North America.Also isolated, they too acquired distinct physical characteristics.
From the above description…which is corroborated by most other scientists with small differences in dates…..its clear that HUMAN BEING CAN CHANGE IN THEIR APPEARANCES AND PHYSICAL STRUCTURE TO ADAPT THEMSELVES TO THE EXISTING CONDITIONS
Genetic evidence suggests that all humans alive today, despite their apparent variety, are descended from a very small population, perhaps between 1,000 and 10,000 individuals.And this variance among the characteristics of different races of people is attributed to GENETIC MUTATION.
Thus combining the above theories it can be safely concluded that even if sisters and brothers reproduced during the time of Adam then also it is quite possible for the human gene to have developed and adapted such that the ill effects of the initial relationship would have been completely overcome..
Hope your question has been answered….although my answer has not been directed towards you Joel since I dont like to argue with people who have lost their brains in a “Reverse Genetic Mutation” and are no better than apes.Your rightful place is in the local zoo,not in this forum…wonder if anyone has already informed the zoo authorities abou a human-ape variety!!! My answer has been directed towards the unbiased reader and to clarify the misconceptions you have created in this forum about Islam and to expose their hollowness and to project the glory of Islam..

Asif alZarq

HELLO ALL ….

Few days ago a post in this forum claimed that the QURAN is a copy from a number of sources…Christian,jewish,Hindu etc etc…

Well THE QURAN IS THE WORD OF ALLAH.THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO ALTERATIONS IN IT….

Dr.Zakir Naik has very beautifully explained this in his own website www.irf.net Anyone can check out the other valuable knowledge that is present there.I am awe struck by the way he gives the logical answers to the nonsensical allegations of idiotic ignorants.

For the purpose of the reader I am reproducing the same over here.I would like to add that I have the full permission of the author of this article to use it….so no worries about copyright violations….

Question

Is it not true that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has copied the Qur’an from the Bible and other jewish sources?

Answer

Many critics allege that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) himself was not the author of the Qur’an but he learnt it and/or plagiarised (copied or adapted) it from other human sources or from previous scriptures or revelations.

1. MUHUMMAD LEARNT THE QUR’AN FROM A ROMAN BLACKSMITH WHO WAS A CHRISTIAN

Some Pagans accused the Prophet of learning the Qur’an from a Roman Blacksmith, who was a Christian staying at the outskirts of Makkah. The Prophet very often used to go and watch him do his work. A revelation of the Qur’an was sufficient to dismiss this charge - the Qur’an says in Surah An-Nahl chapter 16 verse 103:

“We know indeed that they say, ‘It is a man that teaches him,’ The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.”
[Al-Qur’an 16:103]

How could a person whose mother tongue was foreign and could hardly speak little but of poor broken Arabic be the source of the Qur’an which is pure, eloquent, fine Arabic? To believe that the blacksmith taught the Prophet the Qur’an is some what similar to believing that a Chinese immigrant to England, who did not know proper English, taught Shakespeare.

2. MUHUMMAD (PBUH) LEARNT FROM WARAQA - THE RELATIVE OF KHADIJAH (RA)

Muhummad’s (pbuh) contacts with the Jewish and Christian Scholars were very limited. The most prominent Christian known to him was an old blind man called Waraqa ibn-Naufal who was a relative of the Prophet’s first wife Khadijah (r.a.). Although of Arab descent, he was a convert to Christianity and was very well versed with the New Testament. The Prophet only met him twice, first when Waraqa was worshipping at the Kaaba (before the Prophetic Mission) and he kissed the Prophet’s forehead affectionately; the second occasion was when the Prophet went to meet Waraqa after receiving the first revelation. Waraqa died three years later and the revelation continued for about 23 years. It is ridiculous to assume that Waraqa was the source of the contents of the Qur’an.
3. PROPHET’S RELIGIOUS DISCUSSIONS WITH THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS

It is true that the Prophet did have religious discussions with the Jews and Christians but they took place in Madinah more than 13 years after the revelation of the Qur’an had started. The allegation that these Jews and Christians were the source is perverse, since in these discussions Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was performing the roles of a teacher and of a preacher while inviting them to embrace Islam and pointing out that they had deviated from their true teachings of Monotheism. Several of these Jews and Christians later embraced Islam.

The answer is detailed and will be continued in succeeding posts as the question posed is extremely relevant and detailed analysis and answers are to be presented to clear any stupid misconceptions in this matter and to put an end to this controversy created out of malicious intentions to malign Islam and its Holy Book…AL QURAN…

(To be continued)

Asif alZarq

Friends…

The second post on the topic that The QURAN was copied from external sources…by Dr.Zakir Naik(www.irf.net)

4. THE PROPHET LEARNT THE QUR’AN FROM THOSE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS THAT HE MET OUTSIDE ARABIA

All historical records available show that Muhummad (pbuh) had made only three trips outside Makkah before his Prophethood:
At the age of 9 he accompanied his mother to Madinah.

Between the age of 9 and 12, he accompanied his uncle Abu-Talib on a business trip to Syria.

At the age of 25 he led Khadija’s Caravan to Syria.

It is highly imaginary to assume that the Qur’an resulted from the occasional chats and meetings with the Christians or Jews from any of the above three trips.

5. LOGICAL GROUNDS TO PROVE THAT THE PROPHET DID NOT LEARN THE QUR’AN FROM JEWS OR CHRISTIANS

The day-to-day life of the Prophet was an open book for all to see. In fact a revelation came asking people to give the Prophet (pbuh) privacy in his own home. If the Prophet had been meeting people who told him what to say as a revelation from God, this would not have been hidden for very long.

The extremely prominent Quraish nobles who followed the Prophet and accepted Islam were wise and intelligent men who would have easily noticed anything suspicious about the way in which the Prophet brought the revelations to them - more so since the Prophetic mission lasted 23 years.

The enemies of the Prophet kept a close watch on him in order to find proof for their claim that he was a liar - they could not point out even a single instance when the Prophet may have had a secret rendezvous with particular Jews and Christians.

It is inconceivable that any human author of the Qur’an would have accepted a situation in which he received no credit whatsoever for originating the Qur’an.
Thus, historically and logically it cannot be established that there was a human source for the Qur’an.

6. MUHUMMAD (PBUH) WAS AN ILLITERATE

The theory that Muhummad (pbuh) authored the Qur’an or copied from other sources can be disproved by the single historical fact that he was illiterate.

Allah testifies Himself in the Qur’an
In Surah Al-Ankabut chapter no.29 verse 48

“And thou was not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.”
[Al-Qur’an 29:48]

Allah (swt) knew that many would doubt the authenticity of the Qur’an and would ascribe it to Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). Therefore Allah in His Divine Wisdom chose the last and final Messenger to be an ‘Ummi’, i.e. unlettered, so that the talkers of vanity would not then have the slightest justification to doubt the Prophet. The accusation of his enemies that he had copied the Qur’an from other sources and rehashed it all in a beautiful language might have carried some weight, but even this flimsy pretence has been deprived to the unbeliever and the cynic.

Allah reconfirms in the Qur’an in Surah Al A’raf chapter 7 verse 157:

“Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) in the Law and the Gospel”

The prophecy of coming of the unlettered Prophet (pbuh) is also mentioned in the Bible in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12.

“And the book is delivered to him that is not learned.”
[Isaiah 29:12]

The Qur’an testifies in no less than four different places that the Prophet (pbuh) was illiterate. It is also mentioned in Surah A’raf chapter 7 verse 158 and in Surah Al-Jumu’a chapter 62 verse 2.

7. ARABIC VERSION OF THE BIBLE WAS NOT PRESENT

The Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament is that of R. Saadias Gaon of 900 C.E. - more than 250 years after the death of our beloved Prophet. The oldest Arabic version of the new Testament was published by Erpenius in 1616 C.E. - about a thousand years after the demise of our Prophet.

8. SIMILARITIES IN THE QUR’AN AND THE BIBLE DUE TO COMMON SOURCE

Similarities between the Qur’an and the Bible does not necessarily mean that the former has been copied from the latter. In fact it gives evidence that both of them are based on a common third source; all divine revelations came from the same source - the one universal God. No matter what human changes were introduced into some of these Judeo-Christian and other older religious scriptures that had distorted their originality, there are some areas that have remained free from distortion and thus are common to many religions.

It is true that there are some similar parallels between the Qur’an and the Bible but this is not sufficient to accuse Muhummad (pbuh) of compiling or copying from the Bible. The same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament.

The similarities between the two signify a common source that is one true God and the continuation of the basic message of monotheism and not that the later prophets have plagiarised from the previous prophets.

If someone copies during an examination he will surely not write in the answer sheet that he has copied from his neighbour or Mr. XYZ. Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) gave due respect and credit to all the previous prophets (pbut). The Qur’an also mentions the various revelations given by Almighty God to different prophets.

9. MUSLIMS BELIEVE IN THE TAURAH, ZABOOR, INJEEL AND QUR’AN

Four revelations of Allah (swt) are mentioned by name in the Qur’an: the Taurah, the Zaboor, the Injeel and the Qur’an.

Taurah, the revelation i.e. the Wahi given to Moosa (a. s.) i.e. Moses (pbuh).
Zaboor, the revelation i.e. the Wahi given to Dawood (a.s.) i.e. David (pbuh).
Injeel, the revelation i.e. the Wahi given to Isa (A.S.) ie. Jesus (pbuh).
‘Al-Qur’an’, the last and final Wahi i.e. revelation given to the last and final Messenger Muhammad (pbuh).

It is an article of faith for every Muslim to believe in all the Prophets of God and all revelations of God. However, the present day Bible has the first five books of the Old Testament attributed to Moses and the Psalms attributed to David. Moreover the New Testament or the four Gospels of the New Testament are not the Taurah, the Zaboor or the Injeel, which the Qur’an refers to. These books of the present day Bible may partly contain the word of God but these books are certainly not the exact, accurate and complete revelations given to the prophets.

The Qur’an presents all the different prophets of Allah as belonging to one single brotherhood; all had a similar prophetic mission and the same basic message. Because of this, the fundamental teachings of the major faiths cannot be contradictory, even if there has been a considerable passage of time between the different prophetic missions, because the source of these missions was one: Almighty God, Allah. This is why the Qur’an says that the differences which exist between various religions are not the responsibility of the prophets, but of the followers of these prophets who forgot part of what they had been taught, and furthermore, misinterpreted and changed the scriptures. The Qur’an cannot therefore be seen as a scripture which competes with the teachings of Moses, Jesus and the other prophets. On the contrary, it confirms, completes and perfects the messages that they brought to their people.

Another name for the Qur’an is the ‘The Furqan’ which means the criteria to judge the right from the wrong, and it is on the basis of the Qur’an that we can decipher which part of the previous scriptures can be considered to be the word of God.

(To be continued in the final post)

Thanks
Asif alZarq

Hi Friends…

In this concluding post on the important topic of whether the QURAN was copied from external sources such as the Bible…I would like to add the interesting analysis drawn by Dr.Zakir Naik(www.irf.net) amidst scientific considerations..

10. SCIENTIFIC COMPARISON BETWEEN QUR’AN AND BIBLE

If you glance through the Bible and the Qur’an you may find several points which appear to be exactly the same in both of them, but when you analyse them closely, you realise that there is a difference of ‘chalk and cheese’ between them. Only based on historical details it is difficult for someone who is neither conversant with Christianity or Islam to come to a firm decision as to which of the scriptures is true; however if you verify the relevant passages of both the scriptures against scientific knowledge, you will yourself realize the truth.

Creation of the Universe in Six Days
As per the Bible, in the first book of Genesis in Chapter One, the universe was created in six days and each day is defined as a twenty-four hours period. Even though the Qur’an mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, ‘Ayyaam’ is the plural of years; this word has two meanings: firstly, it means a standard twenty-four hours period i.e. a day, and secondly, it also means stage, period or epoch which is a very long period of time.

When the Qur’an mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, it refers to the creation of the heavens and the earth in six long periods or epochs; scientists have no objection to this statement. The creation of the universe has taken billions of years, which proves false or contradicts the concept of the Bible which states that the creation of the Universe took six days of twenty-four hour durations each.

Sun Created After the Day
The Bible says in chapter 1, verses 3-5, of Genesis that the phenomenon of day and night was created on the first day of creation of the Universe by God. The light circulating in the universe is the result of a complex reaction in the stars; these stars were created according to the Bible (Genesis chapter 1 verse 14 to 19) on the fourth day. It is illogical to mention the result that is the light (the phenomenon of day and night) was created on the first day of Creation when the cause or source of the light was created three days later. Moreover the existence of evening and morning as elements of a single day is only conceivable after the creation of the earth and its rotation around the sun. In contrast with the contents of the Bible on this issue, the Qur’an does not give any unscientific sequence of Creation. Hence it is absolutely absurd to say that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) copied the passages pertaining to the creation of the universe from the Bible but missed out this illogical and fantastic sequence of the Bible.

Creation of the Sun, The Earth and the Moon
According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 9 to 13, the earth was created on the third day, and as per verses 14 to 19, the sun and the moon were created on the fourth day. The earth and the moon emanated, as we know, from their original star, the Sun. Hence to place the creation of the sun and the moon after the creation of the earth is contrary to the established idea about the formation of the solar system.

Vegetation Created on the third day and Sun on the fourth day
According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 11-13, vegetation was created on the third day along with seed-bearing grasses, plants and trees; and further on as per verses 14-19, the sun was created on the fourth day. How is it scientifically possible for the vegetation to have appeared without the presence of the sun, as has been stated in the Bible?

If Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) was indeed the author of the Qur’an and had copied its contents from the Bible, how did he manage to avoid the factual errors that the Bible contains? The Qur’an does not contain any statements which are incompatible with scientific facts.

The Sun and the Moon both Emit light
According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verse 16 says, “And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night”.

Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur’anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur’an is to think of something impossible.

11. ADAM (PBUH), THE FIRST MAN ON EARTH, LIVED 5,800 YEARS AGO

As per the genealogy of Jesus Christ given in the Bible, from Jesus through Abraham (pbuh) to the first man on earth i.e. Adam (pbuh), Adam appeared on the earth approximately 5800 years ago:

1948 years between Adam (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh)
Approximately 1800 years between Abraham (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh)
2000 years from Jesus (pbuh) till today
These figures are further confused by the fact that the Jewish calendar is currently on or about 5800 years old.

There is sufficient evidence from archaeological and anthropological sources to suggest that the first human being on earth was present tens of thousands of years ago and not merely 5,800 years ago as is suggested by the Bible.
The Qur’an too speaks about Adam (pbuh) as the first man on earth but it does not suggest any date or period of his life on earth, unlike the Bible - what the Bible says in this regard is totally incompatible with science.

12. NOAH (PBUH) AND THE FLOOD

The Biblical description of the flood in Genesis chapter 6, 7 and 8 indicates that the deluge was universal and it destroyed every living thing on earth, except those present with Noah (pbuh) in the ark. The description suggests that the event took place 1656 years after the creation of Adam (pbuh) or 292 years before the birth of Abraham, at a time when Noah (pbuh) was 600 years old. Thus the flood may have occurred in the 21st or 22nd Century B.C.

This story of the flood, as given in the Bible, contradicts scientific evidence from archaelogical sources which indicate that the eleventh dynasty in Egypt and the third dynasty in Babylonia were in existence without any break in civilisation and in a manner totally unaffected by any major calamity which may have occurred in the 21st century B.C. This contradicts the Biblical story that the whole world had been immersed in the flood water. In contrast to this, the Qur’anic presentation of the story of Noah and the flood does not conflict with scientific evidence or archaeological data; firstly, the Qur’an does not indicate any specific date or year of the occurance of that event, and secondly, according to the Qur’an the flood was not a universal phenomenon which destroyed complete life on earth. In fact the Qur’an specifically mentions that the flood was a localised event only involving the people of Noah.

It is illogical to assume that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) had borrowed the story of the flood from the Bible and corrected the mistakes before mentioning it in the Qur’an.

13. MOSES (PBUH) AND PHARAOH OF THE EXODUS

The story of Moses (pbuh) and the Pharaoh of the Exodus are very much identical in the Qur’an and the Bible. Both scriptures agree that the Pharaoh drowned when he tried to pursue Moses (pbuh) and led the Israelites across a stretch of water that they crossed. The Qur’an gives an additional piece of information in Surah Yunus chapter 10 verse 92:

“This day shall We save thee in thy body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! But verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!”
[Al-Qur’an 10:92]

Dr. Maurice Bucaille, after a thorough research proved that although Rameses II was known to have persecuted the Israelites as per the Bible, he actually died while Moses (pbuh) was taking refuge in Median. Rameses II’s son Merneptah who succeeded him as Pharaoh drowned during the exodus. In 1898, the mummified body of Merneptah was found in the valley of Kings in Egypt. In 1975, Dr. Maurice Bucaille with other doctors received permission to examine the Mummy of Merneptah, the findings of which proved that Merneptah probably died from drowning or a violent shock which immediately preceeded the moment of drowning. Thus the Qur’anic verse that we shall save his body as a sign, has been fulfilled by the Pharaohs’ body being kept at the Royal Mummies room in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.

This verse of the Qur’an compelled Dr. Maurice Bucaille, who was a Christian then, to study the Qur’an. He later wrote a book ‘The Bible, the Qur’an and Science’, and confessed that the author of the Qur’an can be no one else besides God Himself. Thus he embraced Islam.

NOTE TO THE MUSLIM:WE HAVE NEVER BELIEVED IN THE CURRENT CONTROVERSY THAT IS BEING ROUTED OUT HERE AND THE WORD OF ALLAH IS SUFFICIENT TO PROVE THAT THE QURAN IS A BOOK OF ALLAH AND IT WILL ALWAYS BE SAVED FROM HUMAN ADDITIONS OR ALTERATIONS

In this regard I would like to quote the following versed ..
1

The Qur’an is the Furqaan - ‘the Criteria’ to judge right from wrong and it should be used to decipher which portion of the Bible may be considered as the Word of God.

The Qur’an itself testifies in Surah Sajda chapter 32 verse 1 to 3

Alif Laam Meem.

(This is) the revelation of the Book in which there is no doubt – from the Lord of the Worlds.

Or do they say, ‘He has forged it’? Nay, it is the Truth from thy Lord, that thou mayest admonish a people to whom no warner has come before thee: in order that they may receive guidance.”
[Al-Qur’an 32:1-3]

Thanks all..

Jazakallah Khair..

Asif alZarq

Hi all!

Hope now that when the next allegation is made against the QURAN it would be specifically targeted at the QURAN.I mean to say that when anyone who has doubt about the QURAN’S Guidance then please do not bundle the QURAN,the Torah and the Bible together and levy your charges….since the QURAN is not responsible for the man made mistakes evident in these other Holy texts…

Hope the forum posters will keep my request

Thanks
Asif alZarq

Thanks Asif for your “enlightened” posts,

You’ve become very defensive about ur beliefs. All the posts made recently by u are more book myths - where are the sound reasons and supporting proofs?

You talk glibly about the principle of conservation of matter-energy without realising the implications.

The rationally provable law of conservation does away with the crude Semitic myth of an extra-cosmic God who creates out of nothing.

The dualistic Semitic faiths believe that a God who is apart from the cosmos one day suddenly awoke from his slumber and decided to make a nice cosmos and that he did so out of nothing - Chooo Mantar, Jadoo Tonaa!

With the firmly verifiable principle of conservation of matter, matter is eternal and self-existent; it cannot be created/destroyed. Matter always existed, postulates the principle, sometimes withdrawing into its primal form at the end of a cosmic cycle, only to be re-projected from the infinite seed source at the commencement of the next cosmic cycle.

In such a case, a creator is not necessary as it’d violate the principles of conservation and causality and of unity underlying diversity.

These are all provable facts.

As such, according to the principle of conservation, matter being indestructible (eternal) and self-existent does not need to depend on an extra-cosmic or external power (as if extra-cosmicism is possible!) for its existence.

Matter is self-existent and projects itself or withdraws itself as the cosmic cycles proceed!

So, where arises the need for an extra-cosmic God who’s unlinked with the cosmos but who still manages to create the universes out of nothing ? Out of nothing comes nothing!

Thus, the accurate description of matter-energy being indestructible/eternal and self-existent does away with the crude Semitic idea of creation out of nothing and of naked non-causality!

Cause and effect are in-built in a system. The cosmos is a closed, self-sufficient system that sustains itself on inherent principles of conservation, causality and unity underlying diversity. Add to this the latest pronouncements from the world of Quantum Physics that Consciousness underlies quantum field and you have the replica of mystical thought of Consciousness being the sole reality and of Consciousness as a Force serving as both the material and functional Cause of the universes.

From Unity proceeds the manifestation of the varied cosmos! Now, compare this to the vulgar Quranic idea of an external God who lives somewhere outside the cosmos, who’s unlinked with the cosmos and who yet creates the cosmos and that too out of nothing !

Asif, the principle of conservation, in one mighty blow, pulverises the Semitic hypothesis of an extra-cosmic God who creates out of nothing.

So, before quoting the laws of science, you ought to know the implications. Creation out of nothing is impossible.

Next, your Out-of-Africa claim is just a theory put forward by the fledgling field of genetics. It’s always revising its conjectures drawn from the flimsiest empirical studies about age of the human race, origin of life, speciation, etc.

Genetics cannot determine the basal functional differences among people, it only has discovered the first basics of gene structure and its superficial modes of differential ethnic, qualitative and ordinary functional traits.

NOTE: If, as aver our men of science, a mere 1.6% genetic difference separates the human species from the chimp family, then, how is it that an unbridgeable functional gap exists between the two species? If we’re so genetically close to the apes, then shouldn’t the chimps have almost caught up intellectually and in other functional ways with the human race? The question is what are scientists talking about? Is it a crude structural genetic difference that separates the two species when obviously it cannot mean a functional gap since where abilities are concerned there’s no comparison between the apes and men. Evolutionists are in the dark, as expected. Is genetic combination on the human or any life form level that accounts for intra-species differences a random or guided process?…..

Evolutionists begin their theories from the first protozoan or microrganism that appeared on earth some tens of millions of years ago and then naively assume that something as genomically limited as a micro-organism diverged into varied life forms and gave birth to multi-cellular organisms with complex funtions. Isn’t this assumption a violation of conservation? If the sum total always remains a constant, how can something as genomically limited as a single celled organism have produced something genomically higher than itself? There are so many other ways of demolishing this rotten view.

Above all, who can explain how “inanimate mud” became a sentient form? Can insentience ever produce sentience? Who can expalin the transition from “lifelessness” (mud) to “life” (organism)? By what mechanism did insentient matter produce life?

Since life, emotions, mind and consciousness are non-computational quantities, they cannot be material manifestations; physical/material manifestations (charge, mass, volume, etc) are all computational factors but what about consciousness, mind, life and emotions? What are the principles underlying these non-computational quantities? They can not obviously be physical derivatives being non-computational.

So, now, we are again compelled to go back to the old mystical postulates (that Quantum Physics is now validating) that Consciousness as Force is the supreme material and efficient Cause of the Cosmic Manifestation.

As such, nothing is inanimate, everything is instinct with Consciousness. Experiments like the ones undertaken by J C Bose and the experimental validation of the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen proposal on photons endorse the view that matter is instinct with consciousness.

So, the appearance of the species is not a crude organic/physical/random process but is a manifestation of graded conscious forms from the suppressed/subliminal consciousness innate in matter and which serves as the guiding principle/evolutionary lead.

Evolution ought to be redefined as the Evolution of Consciousness through graded physical forms. This makes better sense than considering “inanimate matter” to have suddenly and some-how developed life and that an amoeboidal cell somehow evolved under electrical shocks or by responses to the external environmental and became a higher organism and so on. There’s much more to be dicussed but not now…

THE SILLY SEMITIC IDEA OF AN EXTRA-COSMIC GOD CREATING OUT OF NOTHING AND OF JUMPING DOWN FROM THE SKY AND SHAPING A MAN AND WOMAN WITH HIS HANDS (BUT, HEY, ISN“T GOD FORMLESS? HOW DID HE GROW HANDS?)AND THEN RUNNING BACK TO HIS HOLE IN THE SKY MAKES NO SENSE.

Where is the proof that Adam, Ibrahim, Moosa, etc, existed?

As for in-breeding being valid now but not in the past, you do not know what ur talking.

The laws of nature do not change whimsically and for what purpose is in-breeding/hypogamy not permissible now if they were allowed in the past?

By what mechanism were the ill-effects of in-breeding/hypogamy erased in the past? But now how is it so that hypogamy and in-breeding have such damaging effects on those indulging in such unnatural eugenic practices?

Explain the mechanisms of biology in the past and compare that with the operational bio-psychic laws of today with respect to eugenics. Also say how the laws of eugenics underwent a change that today in-breeding is unnatural unlike in the past.

Don’t come up with some stupid answer like the Quran says so. The Quran is not an authority on any subject. I don’t want silly, superstitious answers of God’s will or his omnipotence also. Give me sensible naswers/proofs with the innate mechanisms involved.

Asif blindly quotes the evolutionists but then he refutes the Darwininan view that humans evolved from apes. How hypocritical.

Obviously, Asif “believes” that God created the universe out of nothing, that heaven is a physical place with rivers/free sex without penises, that God flew down from the sky and manufactured the human race and other species just-like-that and that from one human couple the whole human race sprang up and that screwing one’s own sisters to produce sons/daughters was allowed by Allah in the past but that now it’s forbidden….some-how-or-the-other.

Best Regards,

Joel P

Q) Is it possible for the winged horse Buraq (on which Muhammad flew to the heavens) to have ever existed? How?

PS: If it was a hallucination, we understand. Many such dreams are seen by all of us.

Love, Sanjoy:

Also, if god or allah is extra-cosmic, or from out of this universe, then anything that is out of space and time (i.e universe), is inactive or dead. So, allah must be dead or inactive by this theory

Hi friends..

A good lot of people are here to denounce the Quran as some fictitious copy of other religious texts …and who descibe that Islam attracts lunatics to its bosom…

Well here are a few such “lunatics” throughout the world.Perhaps Joel and his clones would find it interesting what these “lunatics” have to say…

1) Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. There, he was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy for 16 years. He is well-known in his field. He is the author or editor of 22 textbooks and has published over 181 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. When he was asked about the scientific miracles in the Quran which he has researched, he stated the following:

“The way it was explained to me is that Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He could not read, didn’t know [how] to write. In fact, he was an illiterate. And we’re talking about twelve [actually about fourteen] hundred years ago. You have someone illiterate making profound pronouncements and statements and that are amazingly accurate about scientific nature. And I personally can’t see how this could be a mere chance. There are too many accuracies and, like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements.”
Professor Persaud has included some Quranic verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad in some of his books. He has also presented these verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad at several conferences

2) Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson is the Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA. Formerly, he was Professor of Ob-Gyn and the Chairman of the Department of Ob-Gyn at the University of Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, USA. He was also the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Professor Simpson studied the following two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad :

{In every one of you, all components of your creation are collected together in your mother’s womb by forty days…}2

{If forty-two nights have passed over the embryo, God sends an angel to it, who shapes it and creates its hearing, vision, skin, flesh, and bones….}3

He studied these two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad extensively, noting that the first forty days constitute a clearly distinguishable stage of embryo-genesis. He was particularly impressed by the absolute precision and accuracy of those sayings of the Prophet Muhammad . Then, during one conference, he gave the following opinion:

“So that the two hadeeths (the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad ) that have been noted provide us with a specific time table for the main embryological development before forty days. Again, the point has been made, I think, repeatedly by other speakers this morning: these hadeeths could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available [at] the time of their writing … . It follows, I think, that not only there is no conflict between genetics and religion but, in fact, religion can guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches, that there exist statements in the Quran shown centuries later to be valid, which support knowledge in the Quran having been derived from God.”

3) Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. There, for 22 years he was Professor of Anatomy, the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute. He was also the President of the Teratology Society. He has authored more than 200 publications. In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:

“Summary: The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events